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Author Topic: What is the purpose of enemies in Gnomoria?  (Read 21347 times)

Wraith_Magus

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Re: What is the purpose of enemies in Gnomoria?
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2014, 02:59:00 PM »
Why must people assume what others mean by something?  I did not write anything about agreeing/disagreeing with any of what another person said. I simply shared what I believed to be the purpose of the challenges currently in the game.
Having some force that threatens to take my riches from me very much appeals to me, and it wont appeal to everyone. (why you can turn such threats off)
I can completely agree that more challenges/ways of being challenge would add more depth to the game, I never spoke against this.
However I don't think that enemies are the only challenge in the game. Yes they are the only challenge not made by the player but there are many ways to add depth to a world on your own.
I once tried for a trade state where every possible crafting jobs was running at legendary levels. I had 2 yaks 2 alpacas and 4 emus born a day, had 3 mining colonies that I could buy out each season.
There is a lot to try making a world into.

Judging by what you wrote, it certainly seems like you were assuming quite a bit about the OP, yourself.  What you said heavily inferred that if he says that fighting monsters isn't fun, then it's because he's no good at the game, and just hasn't learned how to play it properly, rather than that he knows what he's doing, and just doesn't enjoy combat in this sort of game. That is an inherent insult, both on whether or not someone is capable, but also dismissing out of hand the possibility that someone just plain has a different playstyle. 

The OP was talking about how the different enemies force you to react to their presence, and he's talking about how their influence on player behaviors don't really make the game any better, because the tricks to dealing with them are arbitrary and limiting, but not particularly challenging.  You assumed he just wasn't capable of understanding the things about which he explicitly stated understanding.

It may be just me, but it feels like every challenge, like building, workshops, enemies, in this game is essentially player imposed.  We have the choices in how we play, if we play with monsters, if we wall off, how we set up our military, if we use custom traps, etc.  Yes, monsters can be trivialized and made to be useless in the game.  But they are included as a means to develop strategy and play according to certain methods.  If I turn off monsters completely I can build an elaborate and expensive kingdom with no military and lots of gnomes building.  If I play on 2/2/2 I would play entirely differently.  If I choose to torch light my dungeon I would play way different than if I choose to encounter zombies and skeletons, etc.  As a sandbox game with lots of player choice guiding any individual play through of the game, I think monsters are just that...another choice.  A certain part of me likes the idea that we have to play the game with the options we are given to use instead of always complaining about what could be better.

The thing about it, however, is that Gnomoria has a lot less capacity to really be a game where you just build up your little town and play dollhouse as a sort of overly complex The Sims game, the way that Dwarf Fortress or even Minecraft does.  There really isn't much more to the game than getting really, really rich and killing a lot of goblins and/or beetles later on. 

A good example of the sort of thing that DF does to make it more possible to play the game for the "storytelling" or the "worldbuilding" is how the dwarves have individual personalities (even if they don't really do much with them,) where different dwarves have different basic capacities for specific kinds of work, and engraving draws from a regional history file, rather than just letting you make a star shape or having all statues be exactly the same.  Gnomes are much more faceless disposable units than my dwarves are, even with as brutal an attrition rate as my dwarves have. 

If you want to build a really fancy fort and make it like Legos, there really aren't all that many options in terms of your building blocks.  You can build a far larger "painting" in a game like Minecraft than you can in Gnomoria, and there's the additional limitations of what you can feasibly mine out of the ground. 

The problem the OP tries to highlight is how the specific conditions under which goblins, especially appear, also directly run counter to your ability to enjoy making a big, fancy palace.  The "remedy" to this is to basically shut the main point of the game off so that you can enjoy either one or the other, but not both.  Again, part of what I really enjoy about X3:AP or a game like Skyrim is that you can swap between building factories and starfighting or else collecting herbs for potions and fighting a dragon all at a moments notice, picking the intensity and gamestyle you feel like at the time.  The "solution" being offered is to never play any combat at all, and shut off most of the game, which is even more unattractive than having to refrain from building your fort the way you want to build it. 

Again, I'd think the best way to handle these problems is with development of some of the internal conflicts you see in games like Tropico or Crusader Kings, rather than strictly relying upon external threats all the time, as external threats are always easily managed so long as you have an easily managed internal situation.  Making it so that, as you grow wealthy and powerful, you can't count upon the doggedly loyal obedience of your happy little communists, and have to manage internal conflicts as well as external ones would allow the game to have more dimensions than just making sure you don't starve, you don't open a cavern full of beetles, and you don't have more wealth than your military can handle.

Aynslei

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Re: What is the purpose of enemies in Gnomoria?
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2014, 03:36:28 PM »
Judging by what you wrote, it certainly seems like you were assuming quite a bit about the OP, yourself.  What you said heavily inferred that if he says that fighting monsters isn't fun, then it's because he's no good at the game, and just hasn't learned how to play it properly, rather than that he knows what he's doing, and just doesn't enjoy combat in this sort of game. That is an inherent insult, both on whether or not someone is capable, but also dismissing out of hand the possibility that someone just plain has a different playstyle. 

The OP was talking about how the different enemies force you to react to their presence, and he's talking about how their influence on player behaviors don't really make the game any better, because the tricks to dealing with them are arbitrary and limiting, but not particularly challenging.  You assumed he just wasn't capable of understanding the things about which he explicitly stated understanding.

I learned good ways to mine trying to get ore and coal(and not spawn lots of monsters) so I could learn what to build to make weapons (what goblins taught me), I did not say a damn word (or words to infer) about anyone's skill.
I would like one person other than you to explain how in any of what I typed I was assuming about anything in relation to the OP. Do not try to put words in my mouth to give you some excuse to make your ramblings.
This is a forum you don't need some excuse to make points, go to the suggestion board and post your suggestions it whats its for.

I am a fair and straightforward person, I have lost respect in you and what you write and will continue to lose respect if you keep making assumption even after someone tries to correct you.
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Merry76

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Re: What is the purpose of enemies in Gnomoria?
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2014, 01:46:16 PM »
I just read up this post again. It starts to derail into a shouting match - please cool your jets, calm down and get it constructive again.

There is no way a forum - trench fight is going to be productive.

Also, being nice to eachother helps. If you want to shout at someone, take it to PM's and shout at me. Others have done so in the past, and I dont mind.
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Shurp

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Re: What is the purpose of enemies in Gnomoria?
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2014, 03:38:42 PM »
Is there any official word on what direction Robobob will be taking the game in the future?  I agree that the game needs more strategic complexity of some kind.  Perhaps increasing the level of interaction with other settlements would work.  It would be interesting if you had to worry about ambitious foreign gnomes attacking and taking you over, or your gnomes defecting to wealthier settlements if you refuse to increase your kingdom worth...

Juord

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Re: What is the purpose of enemies in Gnomoria?
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2014, 11:32:30 PM »
Is there any official word on what direction Robobob will be taking the game in the future?
http://gnomoria.com/developer-plan/
~1700 hours on Gnomoria

English is not my native language, thanks !

Shurp

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Re: What is the purpose of enemies in Gnomoria?
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2014, 08:07:49 PM »
It seems a number of these have already been implemented -- mants spawning off of food, tribute/insults to goblins, etc.

BinaryMan

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Re: What is the purpose of enemies in Gnomoria?
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2014, 08:01:53 PM »
Since goblin attacks are arguably the most important element of "enemy", and since their strength is directly related to KW, we have the situation where we *intentionally limit* our kingdom (KW management). It's sort of an oddity of the game actually. Now there is the "enemy strength increases over time" but this is in addition to KW. I feel that this option but removing KW from the equation (which is just saying that there is something like KW that ticks up over time) in conjunction with difficulty multipliers can give us a more logical situation where we actually *need* to build up our kingdom and KW to overcome it instead of stifling it. Gnomes get harder and harder to get with more KW (exponential) and I suspect the time option is linear, so the difficulty will potentially increase until you are overcome. It's possible to put a "win" condition on this, but as it's a sandbox style game I don't feel the need to.

In conjunction with some of the other suggestions on more improved enemies (such as flyers) this could lead to an interesting difficulty and strategy curve - instead we would need to discuss how to grow as fast as possible, and a real motivation ensues.


Arryu

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Re: What is the purpose of enemies in Gnomoria?
« Reply #67 on: December 23, 2014, 05:28:29 PM »
this option but removing KW from the equation (which is just saying that there is something like KW that ticks up over time) in conjunction with difficulty multipliers can give us a more logical situation where we actually *need* to build up our kingdom and KW to overcome it instead of stifling it.


So you're thinking it would be more of a challenge if the goblin kingdom under the diplomacy tab had it's own (possibly) hidden KW that went up at a rate adjustable via sliders similar to enemy size and attack rate in world gen?

I actually like this. That way you're not just watching your own KW, but the enemies, and if they get too far ahead of you then they will start showing up in heavier armor, with ogres, or with better skills over time, and if you get ahead of them they advance as they do now.

Maybe the goblin KW slider increase varies like the others, with 0.1 being the slowest (practically nil), and 2.0 being fast (goblins will have grown to have metal armor by year 2 or 3), maybe a checkbox to disable it entirely. This mechanic could get the player decide whether to idle or race the goblins, but still lets the player choose if he wants to advance quickly or at a more leisurely pace.

Merry76

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Re: What is the purpose of enemies in Gnomoria?
« Reply #68 on: December 24, 2014, 12:59:09 AM »
this option but removing KW from the equation (which is just saying that there is something like KW that ticks up over time) in conjunction with difficulty multipliers can give us a more logical situation where we actually *need* to build up our kingdom and KW to overcome it instead of stifling it.


So you're thinking it would be more of a challenge if the goblin kingdom under the diplomacy tab had it's own (possibly) hidden KW that went up at a rate adjustable via sliders similar to enemy size and attack rate in world gen?

I actually like this. That way you're not just watching your own KW, but the enemies, and if they get too far ahead of you then they will start showing up in heavier armor, with ogres, or with better skills over time, and if you get ahead of them they advance as they do now.

Maybe the goblin KW slider increase varies like the others, with 0.1 being the slowest (practically nil), and 2.0 being fast (goblins will have grown to have metal armor by year 2 or 3), maybe a checkbox to disable it entirely. This mechanic could get the player decide whether to idle or race the goblins, but still lets the player choose if he wants to advance quickly or at a more leisurely pace.

That would however consist of an entirely new game mode, because it pressurizes players quite a bit. Add more goblin settlements to the mix (because you can, with a system like this) and decrease the current kingdom worth of the attacker by the amount he lost in an attack. Or increase it if you bribed them off. Leads them to send more "tax collectors/looters" and getting greedy.

Cant say I wouldnt like it, being able to say when your military pressure stagnates (like you currently do) is kind of "easy mode". This game mode (if done right) could mean perpetual challenge. However (if done wrong) it could just replace the "enemies get stronger over time" with a complex system (read this as: a few weeks to implement) that does exactly the same. Not entirely enjoyable if done wrong then.

It probably has to be switchable, because I guarantee you that some people will hate it with the burning passion of a thousand suns - just look at our past debates concerning mants, and "walling in". That didnt go well...
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