August 18, 2017, 01:08:25 PM

Author Topic: Gnomoria v0.9.17 RC12 release  (Read 80135 times)

Overnosebaer

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2014, 11:37:23 AM »
I loaded up your save just to check out the golems, about 10 seconds of actual play time I got hit with a goblin assault that lagged the game horribly.  After that cleared up I didn't have any troubles with golems getting refueled.  I must say, that was a lot of spike traps and it did seem to work lol

I took a screenshot off Overnosebaer's save with some golems, all credit goes to him, I just snapped the pic.

Thanks for pointing me there. The crash happens when the refilling task (Gnomes in the screen are doing it) is aborted...

Merry76

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2014, 12:42:37 PM »
Loaded up Overnosebaer's save. It did get moderately slow (you shouldnt try my reservoir refilling cycle...) during the "confused goblin attack" but I couldnt get it to crash.

Even with aborting the refilling on purpose (I am glad my automatons refill themselves while training... patrolling doesnt seem to be their strenght).

Edit: although it didnt crash for me, that save showed me some new things: if you ever abort a refilling task, you are now the proud owner of a immovable, worthless but expensive statue that hopefully gets "killed" by a passing mant. Reason for that is that the engineers give up on refueling it forever. I guess automatons cant cry for coal... (consider this a confirmed bug).

Also, all of Overnosebaer's refilling tasks do not get completed. Ever. Its probably not the ingnoman skill levels of said engineers, but more of a movement bug: I guess the refill task wants to take place at a very specific location - and the gnome is waiting the immovable automaton to do that important extra step. Which of course never happens, because it cant move without the fuel. (consider this an educated guess, but still a bug).
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 01:07:59 PM by Merry76 »
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Alkoholiker

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2014, 02:32:33 PM »
there is a similar bug in .16. i can reproduce it and its extremely annoying.

first time it happened, i was stupid enough to remove a stockpile with crates on it. then i built a couple ones on another stockpile so the crates got moved and built. in the meantime i set up a new stockpile for the items from the old one. suddenly a gnome wanted to stock items from a crate that was carried by another gnome for the build job. the result was a trail of stocking tasks which couldnt be done since the items were somewhere else. i tried cancelling the stocking but it didnt work. but that was just the easy part of this bug. the trail went right through my workshops. suddenly 2 workshops were unuseable due to this situation. i desconstructed them which resulted in a locked tile. i couldnt build a new workshop. i had to alt tab and kill the game and load from a save 3 days before this event to remove this bug.

the second time it happened i changed something in the profession tab while a miner was on his way to farming (typical high worker demand shifting). i did not uncheck the farming abilities, i simply changed the ranking in the right collum. when i closed the menu the wheat tile was unaccessable. again i couldnt stop the tasks. i had to remove the farm, then manually forage the single tile to remove its lockdown.

deathpickle

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2014, 03:39:46 PM »
A few questions on the automatons. (i haven't tested it)

can automatons chop down trees and mine? (equip felling axe / mining pick) if so, are they able to produce enough tree's, chop them down, and turn them coal all in a self sufficient manner? and also collect enough metals to make repairs?

can the automatons make more automatons? repair them too?


if all of these are true, then does that mean i can has a self sufficient automation town?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 03:53:49 PM by deathpickle »
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Tank2333

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2014, 05:13:46 PM »
A few questions on the automatons. (i haven't tested it)

can automatons chop down trees and mine? (equip felling axe / mining pick) if so, are they able to produce enough tree's, chop them down, and turn them coal all in a self sufficient manner? and also collect enough metals to make repairs?

can the automatons make more automatons? repair them too?


if all of these are true, then does that mean i can has a self sufficient automation town?

yep they can they act like normal gnomes
my atomatons are given a special job so they haul chop/plant trees and do mining
but i ouldnt use them for fighting
5 automatos attacked a golem and couldnt handle it and one got heavily damaged wich is pretty expensive to repair
its uses 1 armor plate for eahc injury

Arryu

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2014, 05:19:09 PM »
So each automaton requires armor plates, a core, gears, and cyliders, right?

My question is this: how does the type of core affect the golem produced? Does a better core mean a better automaton with better stats, or if I use a dirt core and steel armor plates will it be the same as a steel core and copper armor plates?

Sven

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2014, 09:48:36 PM »
yep they can they act like normal gnomes
my atomatons are given a special job so they haul chop/plant trees and do mining
but i ouldnt use them for fighting
5 automatos attacked a golem and couldnt handle it and one got heavily damaged wich is pretty expensive to repair
its uses 1 armor plate for eahc injury
They are just like gnomes, 5 gnomes without any training and gear will also have problem dealing even with golems.
But if gnomes will be able to repair them after death, they will become pretty much safest way to defend: increase their skills in training without any chance of losing highly trained unit in battle. It will also create a good way to make use of metal from goblins. May be decent way to defend at ultra high KW without "cheety" feeling of custom traps.

But if we will be able to produce them indefinitely, especialy without KW increase, they will definitely be overpowered.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 09:51:10 PM by Sven »

Merry76

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2014, 10:29:06 PM »
They are just like gnomes, 5 gnomes without any training and gear will also have problem dealing even with golems.
But if gnomes will be able to repair them after death, they will become pretty much safest way to defend: increase their skills in training without any chance of losing highly trained unit in battle. It will also create a good way to make use of metal from goblins. May be decent way to defend at ultra high KW without "cheety" feeling of custom traps.

But if we will be able to produce them indefinitely, especialy without KW increase, they will definitely be overpowered.

They are stronger than unarmed gnomes. They can have a body of steel that withstands mant attacks, and have punches and stomps that tear bears apart. So, pretty overpowered.

But:

They are amazingly expensive. I do have 5 "Punchbots", wich I used them in the last goblin invasion and it set me back 50 steel in repairs. The same goblin invasion gained me 120 "meltable" parts, resulting in maybe 200 slivers, which results into about 20 bars of (overpriced) steel. The exact numbers are hard to come by, but most parts only yield 1 sliver, and those parts are most common (helmets and breastplates tend to get obliterated) - I also get some iron clad goblins in the mix every now and then. Granted, that battle was one of the more "smooth" ones because I had 5 extra soldiers that really held their own. But I am now struggling to keep up with the steel demand where I was "in the clear" before (and also winning the battles).

Granted, they only have about 40-50 fighting skill, and about 10-20 dodge (so I expect greater things from them) but they probably will always be expensive to repair. Breaking armour costs you nothing at all if the gnome wearing it survives the hit. Granted, I prefer a damaged/destroyed automaton over a dead gnome - but you need to train up automatons before they get anywhere near feasible for combat. Just like gnomes, tbh. Which is fine. They should in no way be a surefire, out of the box way to win vs. the enemy.

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Sven

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2014, 10:43:09 PM »
Granted, they only have about 40-50 fighting skill, and about 10-20 dodge (so I expect greater things from them) but they probably will always be expensive to repair. Breaking armour costs you nothing at all if the gnome wearing it survives the hit. Granted, I prefer a damaged/destroyed automaton over a dead gnome - but you need to train up automatons before they get anywhere near feasible for combat. Just like gnomes, tbh. Which is fine. They should in no way be a surefire, out of the box way to win vs. the enemy.
That's the main problem that i see now: they will be able to get to 400-500 fighting and 250+ dodge without any danger and even without KW increase of armor. And those automaton gods of punching will definitely be able to kill enough goblins to get metal for repairs.

Merry76

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2014, 10:56:09 AM »
That's the main problem that i see now: they will be able to get to 400-500 fighting and 250+ dodge without any danger and even without KW increase of armor. And those automaton gods of punching will definitely be able to kill enough goblins to get metal for repairs.

Thats not really a problem. Gnomes with that kind of skill will also obliterate enemies. And they cost less to repair. Replacing them is even cheaper, and the loss is about the same: if an automaton has to train for 10 years to become a god at punching, loosing him hurts you as much as it would hurt to loose a veteran of 10 years.

If you reach those levels, the game cant really cope with it. Onehitting ogres is probably commonplace, no matter what you do. I have never reached that level, as I never did a megaproject and lost interest in the kingdom because it felt like it "won" the game. Unless the game caps skill gain (or skill returns), those levels will come, if you are willing to wait long enough.

Edit: also note that KW is somehow moot after you have equipped 30+ gnomes with weapons and armour. It is something to watch, sure. But once you reach the level where steel is the thing to be and you are clad in it, KW is no longer a factor.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 10:57:48 AM by Merry76 »
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Sven

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2014, 11:27:44 AM »
Thats not really a problem. Gnomes with that kind of skill will also obliterate enemies. And they cost less to repair. Replacing them is even cheaper, and the loss is about the same: if an automaton has to train for 10 years to become a god at punching, loosing him hurts you as much as it would hurt to loose a veteran of 10 years.
I meant when Robobob will implement repairing golems after their "death".
If you reach those levels, the game cant really cope with it. Onehitting ogres is probably commonplace, no matter what you do. I have never reached that level, as I never did a megaproject and lost interest in the kingdom because it felt like it "won" the game. Unless the game caps skill gain (or skill returns), those levels will come, if you are willing to wait long enough.

Edit: also note that KW is somehow moot after you have equipped 30+ gnomes with weapons and armour. It is something to watch, sure. But once you reach the level where steel is the thing to be and you are clad in it, KW is no longer a factor.
Those level will indeed come, though not after only 10 years. Problem is getting there. It's very, very hard to survive without any casualties even on normal after certain KW. This will effectively cap average skill level of your gnomes, because every gnome in your military will eventually die. That won't be the problem with automatons when repair-revival will be implemented.

And at any KW difference between 0 KW and KW from ~36 full sets of steel armor and 6 sets of legendary steel weapons is noticable.

Merry76

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2014, 12:31:57 PM »
And at any KW difference between 0 KW and KW from ~36 full sets of steel armor and 6 sets of legendary steel weapons is noticable.

I am currently on 2.1 MKW.

I plated the roof of my Tower with golden floors to make it prettier and increase kingdom worth. I do have 40 soldiers kitted out in gear. I would gladly kit out another 10, but frankly they just dont want to migrate (I might need another 250KKW just to get 1 or 2 gnomes... Far more than their kit would be worth). Problem is that I am at a nice "sweet spot". I cant attract more gnomes because the pressure would overwhelm me (I havent lost a gnome in 10 years, but breastplates started to break lately). So I need to wait some more until I can do the leap to attract more gnomes. Gear isnt the problem anymore, enemy pressure is. I have to thread carefully, but with trade stuffs and golden floors.
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Sven

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2014, 12:54:54 PM »
I am currently on 2.1 MKW.

Now imagine that you can have twice as many "gnomes" and with only 50% of your KW.
36 sets of steel gear is ~1kk KW.

Aynslei

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2014, 01:28:42 PM »
I don't think being able to repair an automaton that has had its core damage will ever be possible, bringing the same perma-death that gnomes have (just a smaller chance).
(tl;dr)
If playing at normal difficulty the limiting factor for how far I can take(have interest in) a game has never been military capability it has always been dealing with legendary spam. In 4 years of training a new recruit on my old world he has surpassed the skills of another worlds military that has been training for 16 years but only at training grounds. There are two things to this: one actual combat training far surpasses that at the grounds, and two not setting new recruits together but matching a "sensei" with a nub. I haven't had any trouble training replacement gnomes for the rare deaths that do occur provided I actually train them not just stick them at a grounds with other gnomad nubs.

Real combat training for an automaton will be costly even for one, much less the numbers needed to replace a gnome military. (Regular training will take even longer compared to a fleshy gnome)
Where at the point I can afford a single steel automaton my gnomes can do its job better and cheaper, while to prevent an automaton from costing large amounts in repairs it would need lots of other automatons and I think the fuel costs are what will balance this. So if I spent ten years training some steel automatons (and managed to afford a decent amount) I bet my gnomes with 10+ years training will still beat them at killing stuff faster.

In short words(tl;dr) I don't think automatons will ever completely replace gnomes in military roles or other wise.
(p.s. I have a 21 year old map at 4.1 MKW with only 3 deaths, 2 of which are silly non combat deaths. It uses no traps to stall enemies)
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bizantia

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Re: Gnomoria v0.9.17 release
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2014, 08:01:00 PM »
I've managed to tinker through to automatons on 2 fresh worlds, but I've yet to notice if they count towards my total gnome population at different kingdom values.  So far I've found they work best as workhorses to do workshop tasks while I train gnomes for my military.  If I get 6 gnomads during the first summer I can have tinkering through automatons by early spring year 2.  Leave a bunch of stone around layer 7 and monk gnomes can easily obliterate golems for training and easy cores.  Then; with an autobot work force the gnomes can train.  Way of the Gnome then later weapons+armor and Perks greatly outweigh the benefit of the automatons in combat in my opinion.  Automatons suck up many armor plates.

P.S. automatons marked as only miners and/or woodcutters will carry a felling axe and/or pickaxe into combat and level up the respective skills.