May 24, 2017, 08:46:50 AM

Author Topic: Cool New Project  (Read 2596 times)

Mial

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Cool New Project
« on: June 25, 2014, 10:55:40 AM »
I came across this. I'm not normally an environmental person or activist or anything but this seems very interesting. Company is called HNO Green Fuels-

Watch/read about it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD1-CW2t13U

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/hno-green-fuels-inc-the-leefh2


I'd like to hear what you all think about it as well.

Stickle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
    • View Profile
Re: Cool New Project
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2014, 01:13:09 PM »
I am skeptical in part because of how it is being marketed. I don't know enough about diesel engines to judge it based on its possible function, really.

But, the fact that it's running, to a large extent, on a platform of "produces oxygen!!1" worries me. We are not running out of oxygen, and more is not necessarily better, anyway. But the reality is that it doesn't really release oxygen into the atmosphere; unless the hydrogen being injected into the engine either disappears or binds with carbon to form hydrocarbons (which is exactly what this device claims to reduce - unburned hydrocarbon chains). If neither of those happen, then the hydrogen comes out the exhaust as hydrogen and proceeds to bind with oxygen to produce water again.

So ultimately, based on the limited information on the site, assuming this actually works, it uses electricity to reduce particulate emissions from diesel engines, using hydrolysis as an intermediate step.

If it works the way and to the extent that they claim it does, maybe it's worth it. But the way the fundraiser is set up doesn't lend a great deal of credibility in my eyes. If they wanted my support, the fundraiser should focus on how the hydrogen injection actually improves combustion efficiency, not on a general, "Look! Hydrolysis! Give us $500,000!"

Willbulle

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 79
    • View Profile
Re: Cool New Project
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2014, 01:14:56 PM »
That page screams hoax to me..  :-X
Corny videos, borrowed pictures, etc. 

I like the idea of hydrogen to boost diesel, though.. anythings good to reduce consumption and could be an alternate to electric hybrids. There seems to be a number of papers/prototypes on the subject.

Mial

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: Cool New Project
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 07:41:47 AM »
I agree - I don't think the marketing works all that well for it. I don't think it's a hoax or anything - I'm positive it's real. You can look up there office and company on various sites.

The machine and hydrogen production seems legitimate, and it makes sense. I think what they are appealing to is the environmental cause for the fundraising - if the machine works as it says it does, it will certainly have a positive impact.

Will be interesting to see the result. While there are certainly alternatives like hybrid/electric cars for the average consumer car - there isn't much headway being made in the commercial/industrial side of transportation. Things like large diesel trucks/buses that need the larger engines for torque and horsepower don't really have many alternatives and certainly can't be powered by such engines (this is where I see the importance).

Razekh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 366
    • View Profile
Re: Cool New Project
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2014, 09:38:26 AM »
Well, if they want to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen then that takes energy and they just have to burn more diesel, so what is gained. If the efficiency of the combustion is increased then maybe this extra energy is gained that way. But as Stickle already mentioned, what happens to the hydrogen, and how does it improve efficiency. What kind of exhausts are produced instead, there will be carbon and hydrogen released in the combustion process either way and if it is less in the form of unburnt hydrocarbons then there will be more hydrogen to bond with oxygen to form water and carbon to form carbon dioxides, so there goes the free oxygen. Also, if we have to burn more diesel for the hydrolysis then we get more carbon dioxide and global warming, we should focus on reducing our dependence on fossil fuels instead.

Overall I don't find that idea too encouraging, sounds mostly like a moneygrab for an unreliable project. And the way they say that it produces oxygen makes it sound like they are saying it is ok to go ahead and cut down all the forests now, because we can make oxygen this way instead.

If the device works, with no sideeffects, then fine, but I doubt it, at least from what was presented here.

Mial

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: Cool New Project
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 11:39:10 AM »
This is my current take on everything after reading more into it:

From what I understand, the hydrogen is burned (along with the diesel fuel) during combustion. The result being less diesel fuel burned and it being burned more efficiently. The machine - the Leefh2 or whatever, runs off electricity, which would be produced in the vehicle - via alternator. Now of course, the use of electricity has a negative impact on efficiency, but what I believe they're saying is that the net of these two processes is still a significant increase of efficiency.

So again, I think the net here is that the engine burns less diesel and burns it more efficiently (creating less hydrocarbons, etc.).

Also, I think the unique thing here is that the machine creates hydrogen on demand vs. existing hydrogen powered or assisted cars. Hydrogen burning hybrid cars is nothing new - however, you simply fill their hydrogen tanks and it burns it. The issue with this is, like gasoline, hydrogen is combustible and not readily available (you'd need a special hydrogen filling station, like a gas station).  So the unique thing with this machine is that it creates the hydrogen and then instantly consumes it, leaving no hydrogen sitting there.

Stickle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
    • View Profile
Re: Cool New Project
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 01:26:46 PM »
I agree - I don't think the marketing works all that well for it. I don't think it's a hoax or anything - I'm positive it's real. You can look up there office and company on various sites.

The existence of a company does not in any way mean that this can't nonetheless be a hoax. The president and its two executive directors all happen to be related, as well... Which, while not damning, is also not particularly encouraging to me.

Quote
The machine and hydrogen production seems legitimate, and it makes sense. I think what they are appealing to is the environmental cause for the fundraising - if the machine works as it says it does, it will certainly have a positive impact.

The machine that they demonstrate is literally just a hydrolysis machine. You could build one in your garage. What they advertise, if it works as they advertise, might reduce particulate emissions, but at the cost of increased CO2 emissions (or even methane, which is worse). It's not entirely clear what the environmental effects would be without more information.

Quote
From what I understand, the hydrogen is burned (along with the diesel fuel) during combustion.

If the hydrogen is actually burned along with the diesel fuel during combustion, then their campaign is outright lying. Combustion is just a chemical process where a fuel (in this case diesel and maybe hydrogen) reacts with an oxidant (in this case atmospheric oxygen). If the hydrogen is burned in this process, then it is just forming water, and there is no overall oxygen production by this machine. But other things could happen, too. Perhaps it does improve the combustion efficiency of the diesel, but the hydrogen-rich environment could result in single-carbon hydrocarbons (namely methane) which is a far worse greenhouse gas than CO2.

Quote
The result being less diesel fuel burned and it being burned more efficiently. The machine - the Leefh2 or whatever, runs off electricity, which would be produced in the vehicle - via alternator. Now of course, the use of electricity has a negative impact on efficiency, but what I believe they're saying is that the net of these two processes is still a significant increase of efficiency.

Again, it's possible that, if the machine works as advertised, that the improved combustion efficiency makes up for the energy cost of the hydrolysis. But they give no details, no statistics. And they're asking for $500,000. That's offensive to me; no one deserves $500,000 of no-strings-attached funding (the investors don't even get any ownership of the company!) without providing much more evidence of feasibility than these people have. I don't care what they say, anyone can say anything. They have to prove it, and they don't - not even at a small scale or low efficiency!

Quote
Also, I think the unique thing here is that the machine creates hydrogen on demand vs. existing hydrogen powered or assisted cars. Hydrogen burning hybrid cars is nothing new - however, you simply fill their hydrogen tanks and it burns it. The issue with this is, like gasoline, hydrogen is combustible and not readily available (you'd need a special hydrogen filling station, like a gas station).  So the unique thing with this machine is that it creates the hydrogen and then instantly consumes it, leaving no hydrogen sitting there.

Ok, but it also means that instead of filling a small tank with hydrogen (which is very light), it means filling a large tank with water (which is very heavy). Water may be easily accessible, but if you're feeding this into an engine then you're going to want to be sure the water is very clean, your'e still going to have to be careful where you're filling it with.

No, the only thing these people demonstrate is a working hydrolysis machine, which is completely unexciting. I could do it in my garage tomorrow, albeit not as fancy as theirs. If they want funding, they had better prove that their hydrogen injection system actually does what they claim.

DrJones

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: Cool New Project
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 02:03:05 PM »
The real question here is, how do we incorporate this into the lives of our (usually) happy gnomes?!

I want to see hydrogen powered steam-tanks squashing bugs and goblins alike!

Razekh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 366
    • View Profile
Re: Cool New Project
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2014, 02:13:31 AM »
The real question here is, how do we incorporate this into the lives of our (usually) happy gnomes?!

I want to see hydrogen powered steam-tanks squashing bugs and goblins alike!

Seconded