August 22, 2017, 12:19:59 AM

Author Topic: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?  (Read 36426 times)

someone12345

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Dwarf Fortress vs Gnomoria
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2014, 07:39:27 PM »
What are the differences between Dwarf Fortress and Gnomoria? As far as I can tell, dwarf fortress has more depth but a worse ui and inferior graphics. Gnomoria has better crafting while dwarf fortress has better combat. Dwarf fortress seems to be more easily moddable, as even I can mod it. Which game is better?

DaniAngione

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Re: Dwarf Fortress vs Gnomoria
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2014, 08:57:50 PM »
Chicken can be crunchy and tasty when deep-fried, however fish can be more healthy. Both are healthier than steak, I suppose, although chicken can be cheaper if you don't live near the coast. Which one is better?  ;)

Just kidding, I meant no offense (really) :)

Seriously, though... I don't think that this discussion will lead anywhere (as it happened several times before). It's a matter of personal preference. Both are great, both are enjoyable, and many people (myself included) play both of them. It shouldn't come down to which one is better. After all, what is 'better' anyway? Are graphics and UI more important? Then gnomoria is better. Is depth more important? Then DF is better... How much depth is needed for it to overcome graphics? It's all subjective, it all depends on personal opinion.

Anyway... These are my two cents on the matter.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 08:59:47 PM by DaniAngione »

Merry76

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Re: Dwarf Fortress vs Gnomoria
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2014, 10:27:15 PM »
This thread again. Each point where the games differ could be a matter of opinion. Literally every point. I have seen people argue that DF has a better UI, despite the fact that I failed 3 times to understand it properly (not because I am too stupid, but because I just lost all interest of playing the game while learning it). Or that DF has the better graphics, when you get used to it looking like the matrix where you actually play, and look at stonesense in another window. Which would be like saying that minecraft looks perfect with the standard graphics if you play it next to a window and build a replica of your own house.

Why limit yourself to two games? Why not include all other games where you try to survive by building a fortress/construction by (more or less) indirect commands to your minions?

And there have been creeping up a few lately: Rimworld, Stonehearth, Craft the World, Spacebase DF-9, Gnomoria, Prison Architect, Castle Story, Dungeon Keeper, Dwarf Fortress... The list will continue to grow, and I do have probably forgotten the one game or another.

Ah, yes. Maybe because comparing them all would be even more pointless  ;)
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R86

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Re: Dwarf Fortress vs Gnomoria
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2014, 05:00:57 AM »
I think most of us voiced our opinions over in:

http://forums.gnomoria.com/index.php?topic=6368.0

I'm surprised that thread left the front page. It's "full of salt" if you privy that expression.

Cat

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Re: Dwarf Fortress vs Gnomoria
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2014, 05:29:02 AM »
I am merging this thread with the older thread R86 brought up. Using the search function before posting a new thread is a great way to find out if there is already another thread related to your topic!
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NJekudJN

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Re: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2014, 10:12:49 PM »
Very informative read. I was, and still am, on the fence of playing DF for the first time but just cant get over the hurdle to learn the ins and outs and get used to the graphics after playing gnomoria. I will say though that at first glance i like the depth and plethora of features in DF. If only both could fuse together in some freak act of some evil scientist, the world would be a perfect place

Borsek

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Re: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2014, 01:01:42 AM »
I like both games, I've actually gone and put the effort into learning DF and reading its wiki a lot. I like it, but gnomoria has this charm and simplicity to it, a lot of things are more intuitive and make more sense, like the whole crafting system as well as the military. A lot more can be automated in gnomoria, if you want to automate it. However, it's missing a metric ton of stuff - that is about 5 more metals, one of which should be akin to adamantium, more varied animals and so on and so forth. I like both games, and when I feel like playing simulations, I sometimes play DF, sometimes gnomoria. As for people looking to get into DF, try the 'lazy newb pack', which includes 'stonesense'. Makes DF have a second screen that looks quite like gnomoria - that is, an isometric view.

It would be a lot of fun to see a battle between dwarves and gnomes though, shame we can't merge kingdoms in the two games and fight it out!

Tough.Resolve

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Re: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2014, 07:13:20 AM »
DF is a very unforgiving game that requires a certain type of player, who truly believes in the "losing is fun" mantra. Gnomoria is much more accessible, though I must admit the transition from top-down to isometric hasn't been the easiest. Being a long term DF player myself, I naturally find myself looking for more complexity than is there, with auto crafting of ingredients off as a must.

This kind of discussion is pretty pointless though, as most people interested in it are either wanting to see that someone agrees with their view, or to see how "wrong" someone presenting views from the other side is. Its the same with the League of Legends vs DOTA 2 debate, people can never be happy to just let everyone make their own choices. They see someone ask a question about which game they should play, and cannot stand to see that other people have the opinion the other game is better. Its childishness and jealousy in their purest forms.


That being said, I think both games are great. Gnomoria does need more features that DF already has, but it is already a much more relaxed game from the perspective of the player. A lot of this is down to the programming style and interactions, Gnomoria is a "proper" game whereas DF is more of a visual extrapolation of interactions from the information in the text files. This is why the behaviour of dwarves can often be hard to control and require workarounds such as locking doors, partly due to the fact that adding additional checks would eat up even more cpu tiles. DF already calculates what is happening on every single exposed tile, whereas (I imagine) Gnomoria tracks objects instead. It does tend to add a bit more personality to the game though, as the player doesn't have as much of an iron fist rule as in Gnomoria.


In summary, play the game you like, or play both. If you're happier playing one, play it. But I personally wouldn't forsake either, as future updates to both may (and should be) very exciting.

Grahbarn

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Re: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2014, 08:23:51 AM »
Hairless orphan hit the nail on the head.

Moderator edit: Be respectful.  That is another person behind that post, not a punching bag.

how is he being disrespectful by saying *harirless orphan hit the nail on the head*?

He was just pointing out the factors that make THIS game good, while trying to explain how convalouted DF is and non=user freindly it is, even though he also states that DF is quite fun to play in certain regards as well...

Anyway, on to my reply:

what ever works for the OP works for HIM, everyone here has a veiw point, my view point is... i have tried DF (WTH how complex gan a game get? its like trying to learn programming blind-folded... DK AMAZING game love it love it love it... TOWNS awesome game, a lot more can be done in it than Gnomoria (in certain regards) and it has better graphics... the point is, every one likes what they like! and thats all we are trying to point out (where is the disrespect?) i LOVE gnomoria because:

1. VERY user friendly, even when we didnt have a tutorial, we could *trial and error* successfully

2. everything is simplified, and fun as a result (you want to have a wheat farm? heres some wheat, now plant a farm... you want a wheat farm in DF? only if you know what the letters A, X, H, L, I, O, T ad infinitum do)

3. you know WHAT YOU DID WRONG THAT LED TO YOUR DOWNFALL

4. THIS GAME IS AMAZING!

just my 2 cents, never meant to upset a moderator, but please tell me how we are disrespecting him, by giving him OUR views on the games in question? of course he is entitled to his own, all that has ultimately been said is that if they guy doesn't like playing it, then he shouldn't play it.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 08:26:35 AM by Grahbarn »

lawlbotsama

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Re: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2014, 09:41:51 AM »
Hairless orphan hit the nail on the head.

Moderator edit: Be respectful.  That is another person behind that post, not a punching bag.

how is he being disrespectful by saying *harirless orphan hit the nail on the head*?


i wasn't going to reply to this thread cuz it's old and it's been argued over to death.  i'm guessing lobstarooo originally said something offensive and the moderator edited it out so we wouldn't see it.

and yes, this game is fun.

IronWord

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Re: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2014, 12:19:35 PM »
For me it's the little things. I love both games but i find myself pulling my hair out when i play dwarf fortress and it is not because of the interface. The interface in DF can be learned and you can use the mouse for precision digging and fortress design, dwarf therapist also gives you more power than the employment interface in Gnomoria.

The things that actually infuriate me about DF are the endless stream of bugs and the sheer difficulty avoiding them. Some of these DF bugs have been around for over 4 years(ALMOST HALF A DECADE) and instead of Toady working to fix them he has seemingly abandoned support for fortress mode over a really bland and boring adventure mode.

DF fraustrates. You can fish and do so to get shells which are critical for moody dwarfs  but http://216.97.239.212/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2780

Hey DF has beekeeping - you can make mead! Well not really: http://216.97.239.212/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3981

Well DF you can capture live organisms and sell them in trade depots ! Uhh no you can't http://threepanelsoul.com/2008/05/12/on-trade-goods/

Wow i just cut some large gems, now why can't i sort them and move them from this stockpile they are accumulating in: http://216.97.239.212/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4430

Cool i just found the endgame metal adamantine. Oh my hospital has ordered all my vital metal's processed into suture thread. http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1346

And the most infuriating bug of all, the burrows bug :http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=600
You are promised a powerful tool for automating dwarf activities and when you use it it doesn't just not work it actually cripples your fort as jobs are continually taken outside of burrows that should be ignored. These jobs can never be completed but are continually taken causing your fortress to freeze in all job duties. Another worthless feature. When i did get it to work it was amazing as i set up a intricate assembly line for gems but then the cancellation spam filled the bottom of my windows and my fort slowed to a crawl. No more gems would be delivered from the depths and even the butcher stopped carving up corpses. Best workaround? ignore burrows and carve out a interior for a stockpile the size of the Staples Center to work with gems.... You don't need to do that in Gnomoria. While stockpiles are not as powerful in Gnormoria they don't fight against you and behave in odd ways that are difficult or impossible to predict unless you learn a lexicon of endless bugs.

The list goes on and on. The real problem with Dwarf Fortress is that the developer has largely abandoned development of the dwarf mode game and if anybody disagrees just look at the age of some of these bugs. Many go back to 2010. Perhaps i'm alone here but there is nothing more frustrating than being promised some aspect of gameplay and then realizing that that gameplay isn't present or that it's catastrophically broken. DF isn't just fighting against the interface, the interface can easily be beaten, bugs cannot be beaten they always win and destroy your experience - it's death by a thousand cuts with DF.

Bugs in Gnomoria? Aside from  periodic crashes the only bug i have experienced are 1: gnome deconstructing gearbox over water while standing inside a scaffolding tile will be pushed into the water and drown after deconstruction and 2 if you have too much dirt, or presumably anything outside of a stockpile the stockpile collection acts funny. The first bug is easy to fix, just deconstruct or block scaffolding and for 2, all i did was accelerate my prospecting industry with 3 prospecting workshops. These bugs can be worked around, In order to work around beekeeping you must only have one beekeeper, which basically means you can only have a small mead industry. In order to work around the burrows bug you must elect never to use burrows, in order to work around the fishing bug you must edit the raws. Basically bugs in gnormoria, of which there are only a few i have detected, require workarounds that don't remove content from the game. Bugs in DF are self-detonating with respect to content, the content that is bugged requires a workaround that demands that you just not use the feature.

I have played both games and have loyalty to neither. It is Gnomoria that actually drove me to overcome the interface in DF because i started playing Gnomoria long ago at it's release when it was feature depleted. One realization that i couldn't have ranged soldiers and i asked myself why am i playing this when i could be playing DF and have access to more diverse military roles. I abandoned Gnormoria and went to DF. I worked through the frustration of the interface and was enjoying myself until i realized a new set of challenges that could never be overcome and did not enhance the gameplay but destroyed it , bugs.

A lot of people call Gnomoria a copy or a clone and i have to say "so what?". It's about time that those that are frustrated with DF have some alternative be it the interface is to hard or in my case Gnormoria has a more FOCUSED design philosophy that doesn't render its' task of bug resolution an impossibility because it isn't trying to create 2 different games at once as well as a world generator. In many ways Gnormoria is picking up what was abandoned and left for dead yet the main and only reason i would ever play DF, if i want Skyrim i will play Skyrim rather than a 2d version of it with a procedural world. There are tons of procedural explorers out there but there are few games like Fortress mode and i think many here want that experience, and experience that is clearly not being supported anymore over at Bay12.


 Speaking of procedural generation the whole procedural monster thing is taken way to far in DF. I can only see so many Magpiemen or StarlingMen or MosquitoMen who were bitten by a werezebra and now become wereZebraMosquitoMen on those lunar cycles before I have to role my eyes. Procedural generation is good for somethings like terrain or legends or names  but when did fantasy become the realm of a David Cronenberg fever dream where you have endless  _insert organism here_ - men, it is simply reaching absurd proportions.   
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 12:24:03 PM by IronWord »

whiran

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Re: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2014, 05:54:22 AM »
For me it's the little things. I love both games but i find myself pulling my hair out when i play dwarf fortress and it is not because of the interface. The interface in DF can be learned and you can use the mouse for precision digging and fortress design, dwarf therapist also gives you more power than the employment interface in Gnomoria.

...

 Speaking of procedural generation the whole procedural monster thing is taken way to far in DF. I can only see so many Magpiemen or StarlingMen or MosquitoMen who were bitten by a werezebra and now become wereZebraMosquitoMen on those lunar cycles before I have to role my eyes. Procedural generation is good for somethings like terrain or legends or names  but when did fantasy become the realm of a David Cronenberg fever dream where you have endless  _insert organism here_ - men, it is simply reaching absurd proportions.
You've done a brilliant job at highlighting many of the conclusions about Dwarf Fortress that I've come to as well.

For Gnomoria I'm waiting on going back to it for when the next major content expansion happens - maybe when farming becomes more in depth, maybe when magic is introduced, maybe when relationships between gnomes are introduced, whatever the major content will be.  I hope to see combat changed a little so that I can watch it in real time as it happens (in terms of the text of what's going on).  It bothers me that I have to wait for combat to be over and then hunt down the results in logs.  But that's a DF failing as well. 

I -really- enjoyed gnomoria but I hit the wall of having successfully completed everything in it.  That's not a bad thing at all - I totally got my money's worth out of the game.  But, I hope more is added.

I almost wonder if there should be a 'donate' type button to encourage more development or, even, just to reward the on-going development of this game.  The one time purchase was totally worth it.  Anything more that comes out is just bonus. 

And the end of the day in my mind Gnomoria is better than Dwarf Fortress.  I can totally understand anyone with the opposite opinion 'cause DF has all kinds of things to mess around with but, to me, Gnomoria is where it is at.

ArwingXL

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Re: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2014, 12:19:14 PM »
Well, as of DF 0.40.xx released this year, everything in this thread has become mostly inaccurate, short of interface complaints.

Tarn spent the last two years doing two things: Emotional AI and Organization AI. So now every thinking creature has its own arbitrary initiative to be unreasonable, and entire groups of like-minded, unreasonable creatures have a collective initiative to organize themselves and do things in the world for the greater or lesser good, or for the greater evil, which is an understatement to a summary that menaces with plump helmet spikes.

What this means is, both games are their own things now. Gnomoria is more gamey, and DF is more like managing the costume department at Universal Studios.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 12:35:07 PM by ArwingXL »

Immahnoob

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Re: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2014, 02:37:14 PM »
I would play DF more if it wouldn't be so tedious to learn all little quirks and interface. DF is forcing you to micromanage like a madman for simple things. Actually, even checking what is on your screen is tedious.

scritty

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Re: Why should I play this instead of Dwarf Fortress?
« Reply #74 on: August 11, 2014, 11:01:17 AM »
What this means is, both games are their own things now. Gnomoria is more gamey, and DF is more like managing the costume department at Universal Studios.

0.4 has been a huge disappointment for me with DF exactly for this reason.
The chances of making my grand design recede further and further as now its all about managing emotions and trying to double guess what groups of dwarfs are doing.
Even the likes of Captduck seem to be losing their enthusiasm for a game that is becoming more and more like hard work than fun.
An emotion simulator rather than a game.

That's a level of sophistication I really hope Gnomoria DOESN'T lower itself too