September 22, 2014, 07:11:27 AM

Author Topic: No Patch (11/5)  (Read 4367 times)

RoboB0b

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 868
    • View Profile
    • Gnomoria
No Patch (11/5)
« on: November 05, 2013, 09:44:22 AM »
I was really hoping to have the update out today but it's not quite ready yet.  I've been working on balancing combat and it's taking longer than I had hoped.  Previously, I didn't try to have everything balanced.  It was done with a more sandbox mindset of having things to play with but not necessarily all created equal.

I started from scratch with combat balance and have gone through and adjusted almost everything.  I plan on revisiting perks as well as making a couple related fixes and changes before putting this patch out.  I'm expecting to have everything ready by this time next week.

After the combat balance patch, I'd like to take a look at enemy behaviors and spawn conditions.

Cat

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 330
    • View Profile
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2013, 09:50:39 AM »
After the combat balance patch, I'd like to take a look at enemy behaviors and spawn conditions.

Does that mean something like... having an injured enemy run away or enemies trying to attack certain body parts? Or do you have a different type of behavior in mind?
Wiki | Bugzilla | Chat | Bugs
The views expressed are my own and do not reflect the views of Robotronic Games unless specified as such.

RoboB0b

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 868
    • View Profile
    • Gnomoria
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2013, 10:04:05 AM »
After the combat balance patch, I'd like to take a look at enemy behaviors and spawn conditions.

Does that mean something like... having an injured enemy run away or enemies trying to attack certain body parts? Or do you have a different type of behavior in mind?

More along the lines of that right now their main behavior is to show up and kill everything in sight.  I'm not necessarily saying that I'm making these changes but some ideas that I usually see floating around are changes like mants carrying food off the map and only fighting when necessary.  Similarly, goblins might be looking for treasure/weapons or lay a siege to attack future gnomads and merchants.  Ideally, there would be some non-combat alternatives for preventing spawns or dealing with the enemies/convincing them to leave as well as a possible risk/reward scenario for choosing to fight certain enemies.  I don't want to make any promises but I'd just like to make some changes to enemies in general before adding more.

dramamine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 351
    • View Profile
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2013, 10:07:44 AM »
Could you give us some idea of exactly what you're balancing?

For example, weapon/armor strength, skill modifiers, attack speed, etc?

Have you made any changes to combat as well (for example, changing armor from being perfect absorption until it breaks, to some sort of reduction-based scheme), or are you just rebalancing what's there?

Either way, i look forward to the patch. Thanks for the update!

Show Gnomercy!

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2013, 10:29:19 AM »
Combat rebalancing has been the second most requested issue since I've started playing Gnomoria, here in the forums. I'm pretty excited for the next patch myself. :D

dramamine, I think he'll be working in EVERYTHING, as he have said. Including how armors work, what weapons do what, plus the perks. He's aiming into making everything in the game related to combat (one-handed and two-handed weapons, swords, maces and axes, ranged weapons, shields, heavy armors, light armors, naked, unarmed) decent in some point, including perks.

RoboB0b, now that you are changing combat, how about implementing Tooltips for weapons and armor? We got tooltips for the Perks already, but we may get confused to how weapons work. The tooltips could be something really simple like "Swords are one-handed weapons that do Slash and Pierce damage, with a high chance of making the enemies Bleed." or "Flintlocks are one-handed weapons that do heavy Pierce damage, but have a very small Range."

This or you couldn't simply add boring RPG tooltips with "Damage: 5~8/High", "Speed: 1/Very Slow", "Extra: Higher chance of breaking armors." in lines.

Regardless of your choice, please, give us tooltips! I prefer the first option because it's more immersive, but I'm ok with an RPG-like tooltip as well.

Thank you! :)

Merry76

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2979
    • View Profile
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2013, 10:29:56 AM »
Yay, balancing combat!

Yeah, I know its not here yet, but frankly I dont care. If it is combat balancing, the wait is well worth it (read: combat sucks right now and is rather un-fun). I rather have this one done right than some more sound or graphic effects  :D

Thanks for the info RoboB0b!
Have a problem or a fortress so awesome it needs to be shared?

Well, go on, dont be shy! Use the GnomeworldPool Dropbox account!
How to share Savegames

General Suggestion Collection Thread New and improved Suggestion List

Cat

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 330
    • View Profile
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2013, 10:31:17 AM »
I don't want to make any promises

No worries, I was just curious what your idea of changing behavior meant compared to any number of changes that it could be. Exciting stuff!
Wiki | Bugzilla | Chat | Bugs
The views expressed are my own and do not reflect the views of Robotronic Games unless specified as such.

RoboB0b

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 868
    • View Profile
    • Gnomoria
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2013, 10:34:37 AM »
Could you give us some idea of exactly what you're balancing?

For example, weapon/armor strength, skill modifiers, attack speed, etc?

Have you made any changes to combat as well (for example, changing armor from being perfect absorption until it breaks, to some sort of reduction-based scheme), or are you just rebalancing what's there?

Either way, i look forward to the patch. Thanks for the update!

Weapon/armor strength, weapon defense, attack speed in some cases.  Skill ups have been fixed for training and fighting with 2 handed weapons. Weapons with multiple attacks (like the sword) will pick the better attack for the situation instead of mixing up attacks.  Armor has been changed but not in the way you mentioned.  It worked like that at one point and it wasn't very good.  When people say they want armor to reduce damage, I don't think actually they mean it.  They really just want effects like dropping weapons, falling over, etc to happen and not body parts being damaged and gnomes dying.

RoboB0b

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 868
    • View Profile
    • Gnomoria
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2013, 10:43:26 AM »
Combat rebalancing has been the second most requested issue since I've started playing Gnomoria, here in the forums. I'm pretty excited for the next patch myself. :D

dramamine, I think he'll be working in EVERYTHING, as he have said. Including how armors work, what weapons do what, plus the perks. He's aiming into making everything in the game related to combat (one-handed and two-handed weapons, swords, maces and axes, ranged weapons, shields, heavy armors, light armors, naked, unarmed) decent in some point, including perks.

RoboB0b, now that you are changing combat, how about implementing Tooltips for weapons and armor? We got tooltips for the Perks already, but we may get confused to how weapons work. The tooltips could be something really simple like "Swords are one-handed weapons that do Slash and Pierce damage, with a high chance of making the enemies Bleed." or "Flintlocks are one-handed weapons that do heavy Pierce damage, but have a very small Range."

This or you couldn't simply add boring RPG tooltips with "Damage: 5~8/High", "Speed: 1/Very Slow", "Extra: Higher chance of breaking armors." in lines.

Regardless of your choice, please, give us tooltips! I prefer the first option because it's more immersive, but I'm ok with an RPG-like tooltip as well.

Thank you! :)

Tool tips need to happen.  It's not obvious at all how weapons work or no you shouldn't make gold armor.

dramamine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 351
    • View Profile
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2013, 10:47:52 AM »
Weapon/armor strength, weapon defense, attack speed in some cases.  Skill ups have been fixed for training and fighting with 2 handed weapons. Weapons with multiple attacks (like the sword) will pick the better attack for the situation instead of mixing up attacks.  Armor has been changed but not in the way you mentioned.  It worked like that at one point and it wasn't very good.  When people say they want armor to reduce damage, I don't think actually they mean it.  They really just want effects like dropping weapons, falling over, etc to happen and not body parts being damaged and gnomes dying.
I actually think this would be a good change to make, although I understand that it'd be harder to balance for sure.

I mean, it doesn't have to work like there's some danger of a fully armored knight getting their arm lopped off, but maybe instead of just having armor absorb all the damage while it's intact, have it absorb part of the damage while having the unabsorbed portion hit the gnome as blunt damage. So armor would protect from bleeds/dismemberment, but there'd still be a chance that a gnome would get injured limbs, knocked out, knocked over, or whatever else.

As it stands, gnomes are more or less either invincible or dead once they've started wearing full suits of armor, and odds are pretty good that your bandage supplies and hospital will be woefully underused (by your guards, at least).

Tool_dc

  • The Butcher
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
    • View Profile
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2013, 11:11:09 AM »
Yay, combat rebalancing! I don't care about patch delays, as long as they bring great improvements  8)

So armor would protect from bleeds/dismemberment, but there'd still be a chance that a gnome would get injured limbs, knocked out, knocked over, or whatever else.

I was thinking the same. It's an interesting option!

RoboB0b

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 868
    • View Profile
    • Gnomoria
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2013, 11:17:04 AM »
Weapon/armor strength, weapon defense, attack speed in some cases.  Skill ups have been fixed for training and fighting with 2 handed weapons. Weapons with multiple attacks (like the sword) will pick the better attack for the situation instead of mixing up attacks.  Armor has been changed but not in the way you mentioned.  It worked like that at one point and it wasn't very good.  When people say they want armor to reduce damage, I don't think actually they mean it.  They really just want effects like dropping weapons, falling over, etc to happen and not body parts being damaged and gnomes dying.
I actually think this would be a good change to make, although I understand that it'd be harder to balance for sure.

I mean, it doesn't have to work like there's some danger of a fully armored knight getting their arm lopped off, but maybe instead of just having armor absorb all the damage while it's intact, have it absorb part of the damage while having the unabsorbed portion hit the gnome as blunt damage. So armor would protect from bleeds/dismemberment, but there'd still be a chance that a gnome would get injured limbs, knocked out, knocked over, or whatever else.

As it stands, gnomes are more or less either invincible or dead once they've started wearing full suits of armor, and odds are pretty good that your bandage supplies and hospital will be woefully underused (by your guards, at least).

Oh sorry yeah, I was trying to say that I also think that's a good change.  We don't want bleeding/dismemberment while you have armor but other effects are ok.

Kurnass

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2013, 12:10:20 PM »
I was really hoping for a patch this week. Not so much for more content (or balancing, for that matter), as much as for bug fixes - especially the annoying torch bug.

I understand that working on a new feature is far more exciting than fixing bugs, but the latter is also as important.

http://bugzilla.gnomoria.com/show_bug.cgi?id=752 was created two weeks ago and although has now four user confirmations - still wasn't 'officially' confirmed.
Seeing that versions 0.9.1 and 0.9.1.1 were removed from the News page also gives out that these versions probably weren't ready for release.

What I'm asking is that either a rollback be made to a stable version, and if it's not technically possible (due to savegame incompatibility or other technical/Steam reasons) - to release a temporary fix for the torch problem.

Thanks

Chiko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
    • View Profile
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2013, 01:00:51 PM »
Combat will be the next focus for the upcoming updates? Awesome!

Ripshaft

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: No Patch (11/5)
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2013, 01:02:10 PM »
Aw I was checking fervently all day, but totally understandable. I really dig your ideas on future combat encounter changes.


As for armor, I've only recently neglected my studies enough to play some more gnomoria again and I find it absurdly odd how the armour works in game right now. I can totally understand that having percentage reduction is an absurd idea with armor, as well as flat mitigation, however I think that superiorly crafted and superior material armor should definitely result in a relative boost to the gnomes in combat.

Edit: I had a misconception about armour that made it seem more odd than it actually is (I thought it was a total accumulation and not per battle accumulation =/). I still find it silly, but it's much less silly than I had thought when I wrote this, and it's totally workable as it is. Just wanted to clear that up!

Not suggesting this, but to me the intuitive idea idea was to have different properties that may be more or less desirable depending on cirumstances. Ie copper armor is okay, but it's heavy. Bronze is a flat upgrade, providing better protection at a much lighter weight. Iron is superior in protection to bronze yet weighs more and is harder to move in. And steel has somewhat better protection than iron yet is notably less heavy than iron, though still heavier than bronze. Heaviness/weight negatively affects movement speed and probably dodge and/or accuracy, while decreasing knockdown/knockback chance, so you'd have reasons to equip certain armors over others, though would generally trend towards the higher end material. "Protection/defence" would be a combination of total damage the item can take and "what makes it through", which takes into account damage type vs material type. Ex a heavy 2h blunt attack for some specific amount of damage hits a iron armor, and nothing gets through (armour simply takes durability dmg), though the same attack hits bronze armor and in addition to the durability damage the gnome might get bruised from the attack, where the same attack hits leather armor, and the gnome might suffer some broken bones as a result. Armor skill would reduce the negatives and improve the positives (some more than others, usually in a manner that counterbalances, with an addition overall statistical trend towards higher end armor being flat out superior overall, though not restrictively so).

Obviously I haven't put too much thought into extrapolating these ideas... it's just what seems the most intuitive to me atm; may be a terrible terrible concept lol It's a very complex and difficult subject to tackle no doubt =/

Edit: Also please have ogres rush to steal yaks, and possibly use them as weapons, dual wielding at times if strong enough, that would be amazing and terrible and hilarious.

Edit again: Also do you plan to change the "RUN AWAY!" behavior to have gnomes run somewhere other than into a corner when cornered? Perhaps they could path to the grand hall? This would be especially important if you introduced more organized enemy behavior intended to attack the populace... Currently I have a empty squad dedicated to saving cornered gnomes where I put the gnome in a squad with a uniform that specifies escaping to re-equip, so instead of being cornered and getting horribly murdered he runs to the nearest armory which is well behind my soldiers rushing to save him, and then remove him from the squad once he's home free... this seems a bit cheese one way or the other lol
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 02:15:24 PM by Ripshaft »