June 19, 2018, 07:07:56 AM

Author Topic: X-Rebirth  (Read 14355 times)

Kelderek

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2013, 10:01:35 AM »
Ok, thanks for the advices. Can I build things like factories and space stations on TC? That would be nice.

Oh yes, it's one of the best parts about the game!

You can build individual stations just about anywhere you want, or you can build a bunch of stations and link them together to form a complex.  Here is a picture of one of my complexes, this one has about 36 stations and as you can see 5 of those stations are asteroid mines.  I was able to use a tractor beam to drag the asteroids into position after I built the mine on them so I could get them close to each other, and then I connected them to the rest of the complex.  The round disks in the back are the solar power stations, there are two extra large (XL) ones back there.  This is a "closed loop" complex, which means that it is entirely self-sufficient.  It generates all of the resources it needs to make intermediate goods which are then used to make final products.  This particular complex makes all sorts of stuff including missiles and lasers.  I have 6 complexes so far and my biggest complex has around 62 stations in it!



If you want to see what stations I have in this complex, check out his calculator link

The stations cost anywhere from about 150k to 12mil credits each and you'll need to gain a high enough reputation to be able to buy some of them.  This complex is on the bigger side of things and cost me about 140million total to make, but they don't have to be anywhere near that big.  Also remember that you can build single stations if you want too, that may be a better way to start out.

Stickle

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 02:46:23 PM »
Looks like someone could use some factory complex beautification tips ;)

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4035808

Specifically, his tips on getting the connection tubes to be straight or, at least, not sticking out at funny angles (as it's clear your factory placement itself is thought out). I'm nowhere near as good (or patient) as the guy in that thread, but I found his tips to be really useful. I'm much more proud of my giant factory complexes if they look somewhat planned, rather than like a ball of yarn or crown of thorns. And getting the station in the right spot is really only half the battle (often frustrating in its own right), but having it oriented the right way so that the connections look nice and neat is just as important.

Also, damn you! Because of this thread I caved and re-installed AP... I've already spent a couple hours looking through mods to figure out which are the ones I usually use...

But yes, Tool_dc, you can definitely built factories (as well as, eventually, your own headquarters/shipyard!) in X3TC. There's basically nothing you can do in AP that you can't do in TC, it's mostly just some convenience things, and minor content additions. The factory building is, for me, what makes the game so fun, for so long.

Phtal

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2013, 03:09:07 AM »
is it still possible to let ships autopilot sell that stuff? ( i remember letting my PC run all night to gain credits)

Stickle

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2013, 11:30:30 AM »
is it still possible to let ships autopilot sell that stuff? ( i remember letting my PC run all night to gain credits)

Yes. The game would be basically unplayable otherwise! Even the vanilla game allows you to do that, but the CLS and commercial agent mods that come in the bonus pack give you really fine control over your entire trade and supply operations :)

Kelderek

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2013, 01:57:20 PM »
is it still possible to let ships autopilot sell that stuff? ( i remember letting my PC run all night to gain credits)

Yes. The game would be basically unplayable otherwise! Even the vanilla game allows you to do that, but the CLS and commercial agent mods that come in the bonus pack give you really fine control over your entire trade and supply operations :)

There are a couple downsides that I've discovered to doing this:
1.  Using the time acceleration (SETA) will slowly reduce your reputation ranks with the various races.  This happens even though your traders and agents buying and selling with those races usually increase your reputation, it is not enough of an increase to counter the deduction you get when using SETA for an extended period of time.  For me in my current game this is not really a problem, so I don't mind the small decrease I get in rep while running the game AFK while I sleep.

2.  If you plan to let the game run over night like that, just be sure you have set up good defenses beforehand or otherwise you may lose a lot of property to pirates and such.

3.  Also, be sure you computer can handle it safely.  It might add undue stress to your PC to leave it running that way (it is not exactly idling over night).

Looks like someone could use some factory complex beautification tips ;)

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4035808

Specifically, his tips on getting the connection tubes to be straight or, at least, not sticking out at funny angles (as it's clear your factory placement itself is thought out). I'm nowhere near as good (or patient) as the guy in that thread, but I found his tips to be really useful. I'm much more proud of my giant factory complexes if they look somewhat planned, rather than like a ball of yarn or crown of thorns. And getting the station in the right spot is really only half the battle (often frustrating in its own right), but having it oriented the right way so that the connections look nice and neat is just as important.

Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, that is much more work than I feel like putting into my complex design.  I guess I'm not OCD enough to care, LOL.  When I place stations for a complex, I just line them up in a perfect grid using the placement map zoomed in a couple times.  I don't need to actually look at the rotation of any of them except for the solar plants which are usually too big to not fiddle with their exact position.

Stickle

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2013, 04:19:48 PM »
Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, that is much more work than I feel like putting into my complex design.  I guess I'm not OCD enough to care, LOL.  When I place stations for a complex, I just line them up in a perfect grid using the placement map zoomed in a couple times.  I don't need to actually look at the rotation of any of them except for the solar plants which are usually too big to not fiddle with their exact position.

Hehe. Yeah, if my complexes are too messy I can't enter the sector without my fingers twitching, trying to blow it up and start over... I actually just discovered a couple mods that might alleviate this problem (one just visually removes the tubes, another just makes all stations within a sector function as if they were part of a complex. Not sure how I feel about either, though).

One mod you might be interested in is Complex Cleaner. Basically, once you're finished with a complex and have no intention of adding to it any further, you can activate complex cleaner (I forget exactly how, but I think you have to be out-of-sector). It packs up the whole complex into borg-like boxes. Personally I think it looks pretty ugly, but it does wonders for frame rates. A long time ago I had a game in X3TC, with my home sector including my personal headquarters, something like 100 factories, and a sizeable fleet to keep it safe. Unfortunately, it was so busy that if I pointed my camera in the wrong direction my fps would drop to single digits, and I could barely be in my own home system... Complex cleaner largely solved the issue!

Also, if you plan on leaving SETA on for extended periods of time, make sure that your ship is safely out of the way in a sector where you have no ships or assets. The AI is really good at colliding with things and blowing up, and SETA only makes the problem worse...

Kelderek

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2013, 04:52:58 PM »
Also, if you plan on leaving SETA on for extended periods of time, make sure that your ship is safely out of the way in a sector where you have no ships or assets. The AI is really good at colliding with things and blowing up, and SETA only makes the problem worse...

And it is also good to pick a core system for the added security for your the ship you're flying.  I am keeping all of the ships that I fly personally docked at the Argon EQ in Argon Prime and I just park myself way off on the corner of that sector when I go AFK -- I have no assets in that zone except for the occasional universe traders.


There have been a lot of cool things I have learned on this playthrough that I did not know previously:

1.  I learned how to setup a bunch of CLS training ships.  I used Teladi Kestrels and have them just "fly to station" along a long course to give them lots of flight time.  When they get to max level for CLS I just park them all at a station for future use at my complexes.

2.  I always used transport ships as extra storage at my complexes, but this time around I realized I could automate them with CLS to have them automatically fill their cargo holds as items are crafted.  I realize that may be a no-brainer, but it made my life a lot easier once I figured that out.  I set them to a 0% minimum cargo for the supply condition so they grab stuff immediately.  I can then setup a separate commercial agent (CAG) to sell my products, but they only grab them if the station's cargo is at 20% (which will only ever happen if the storage ship is full).  So if I ever need to grab a bunch of items from storage to outfit new ships, then that storage will refill itself automatically on its own and then eventually the CAG will start selling off the excess -- it's great, I don't have to ever touch it again once I set all of that up.

I'm sure there's a bunch more that I have learned this time around, but that is all I can think of off the top of my head.

Kelderek

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2013, 11:35:03 AM »
Well, I finally found the cash to buy this so I was able to pre-order X-Rebirth on Steam a week ago.  The game releases tomorrow at 12pm GMT (early morning for North America).  I can't wait!

In case any of you pre-ordered the game on Steam, be sure to pre-load it now.  You can also read the game manual if you want by right-clicking on the game in your Steam library and choosing "view game manual".  If all goes well, I expect to play it a bunch over the weekend and I can probably post a short review after I've played a bit if anyone is interested.

Kelderek

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2013, 02:43:40 PM »
The launch has been pretty rough for X-Rebirth so far.  There are a lot of bugs and crashes and the game design is getting a lot of criticism from X-veterans even for the parts that are not buggy.  I've had about 3 or 4 game crashes in about 10 hours of play time so far.  The campaign seems to have a lot of bugs/glitches that make it difficult to follow.

If you were thinking of getting the game, I would hold off and wait to see if Egosoft can fix these initial problems.  I think the game has potential, but it seems to be buried layers deep and I feel like I will be digging for a while before I find the good stuff if it exists at all.

syneris

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2013, 06:10:11 PM »
X3 reunion was a mess when it first released too. Bugs and crashes aside, what do you think of the gameplay? Does it hold true to the X-series? To me, trading is the most important part of these game. I want to create a galactic trade empire that funds and supplies an ever expanding fleet.


So is it an X-game or a glorified space shooter?

Stickle

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2013, 01:00:57 AM »
X3 reunion was a mess when it first released too. Bugs and crashes aside, what do you think of the gameplay? Does it hold true to the X-series? To me, trading is the most important part of these game. I want to create a galactic trade empire that funds and supplies an ever expanding fleet.


So is it an X-game or a glorified space shooter?

If trading is the most important part of these games, then do not buy X Rebirth. Actually, regardless of your opinions of space games in general, i would not recommend buying this game to anyone.

The game has serious performance issues (my computer exceeds recommended requirements, but even running at the lowest settings possible I have yet to break 20 fps...). It runs smoothly on some computers, hardly at all on others (among those that shouldn't have issues). In 4 hours of play I experienced 7 crashes to the desktop and 2 game-breaking bugs that forced me to start over. Trading is bugged and often results in your freighters becoming permanently and irrevocably unresponsive, and occasionally loading the game or traveling in super-highways results in your ship being launched millions of miles out into deep space with no means of getting back...

The interface is absolutely horrible. The only game I've ever played whose interface annoyed me as much as Rebirth's is Dwarf Fortress'... It is fundamentally limited by their determination to make the game completely playable with an Xbox controller, and they decided it would be a good idea not to give other control inputs options that wouldn't be possible on the controller... There are barely any keybinding options, there are no targeting controls (you have to click on targets, and you lose them if they leave your view). There are menus nested in menus nested in menus (everything has to fit around those neat little wheels so common on console games, after all!). The fact that much of the UI is incorporated into a sliding panel in the center of the ship is cool the first few times you see it, and aggravating thereafter - it stops your ship in its tracks, prevents you from seeing outside at all, is displayed at an angle and has limited space to display information... The maps are worse than useless (I still don't know what zones are next to which, or in which sectors, or anything). Hell, you can't even see what zone/sector you're in without swiveling in your chair, stopping your ship, and watching a map pull up over the course of like 3 seconds. Likewise to see how much money you have, and there is no easy way to see your property. Or to find where it is. Oh, and there's no radar, or gravidar. You have no positional context of anything in the game, ever, unless you can see it with your eyes. I have accidentally flown past cargo before, and could never find it again afterwards despite the fact that it couldn't be very far away (the UI element surrounding non-aggressive targets only appears if you mouse over it). And of course, the maps are useless and don't help in this situation at all.

Regarding trading, specifically... There is no automation in this game at all. You cannot trade, in the normal sense, with your personal ship, only with freighters that you own. To do so, you have to find trade offers on stations, fly right up to them (literally within like 50 m) to buy goods; when buying you then choose which freighter you want to use, set how much you want, then wait for it to come. Then you have to personally fly to where you want to sell it (again, you have to find specific locations on the sides of stations who will purchase those goods, which you can only find by exploring fairly close to the stations), and again fly right up to it, choose to sell, select your freighter, and wait. It takes a while, it frequently bugs out and breaks your freighter permanently. When it does work, it can sometimes take 45 minutes to finish, for unknown reasons... Trade locations are also not stored, at least not for long, meaning you constantly have to find new trade offers, and you always have to buy/sell manually, in person. There is no way to tell a trader to just trade, and it appears impossible, logistically, to have more than a few freighters at once due to the time constraints imposed by every step of the process requiring your physical presence and intervention.

On a related note, there is no way to order your ships around. You cannot issue them any commands besides trade (in the case of freighters), and basically whether or not to follow you around. Although often your ships will follow you regardless of whether you want them to. The CEO of Egosoft said, and I quote:

Quote
You are of course right that in X3 there are very complex AI commands which you can give via menus or hotkeys, but in these cases our solution was not to hide these in deeply nested menus. The much better solution is that you don't need them in the first place. THIS is really at the core of the game design goal of X Rebirth! I know not everybody will like this, and it is at some point pointless to argue about what is better.

You can still amass a fleet of freighters and military vessels, but you can't really do anything with them. You can't tell them to explore, or patrol, or protect. You can't tell them to engage a target, travel to a position, leave combat. You can tell them to follow you, in which case they will sometimes fire on targets if you fire first; but they don't appear to defend themselves, or you, at least not consistently. It is possible that some minor elements of control, or at least behavior settings, exist but are just so hard to find in this god-awful interface that the entire community at the egosoft forums has failed to find them... Also, there only appears to be one shipyard in the game for non-capital ships, but it has no ship dealers on it... So you can buy/build capital ships, but nothing smaller, for now. You can build the giant carrier ships, but they're currently bugged and the game crashes if you try to land on them, meaning you can never do anything with them (to make a ship functional you have to land and assign a captain NPC to the ship).

I haven't got to station building, but there are many reports on the forums of it failing pretty badly, of stations failing to build, often with all kinds of visual glitches and invisible walls as a result, and no functioning station.

And then there's the first-person aspect. Oh god, the first-person is so, so terrible. Not only are the NPCs throwbacks to the turn of the millenium, the voice acting is terrible. If you played skyrim and thought the repetitive lines uttered by guards were bad, you have another thing coming. In order to get discounts, or to be able to see the skills of NPCs you might want to hire, you have to get lucky and be offered to play a 'small-talk' mini-game, which consists of pressing the mouse button as a line moves across the highest point in a graph... There are 3 possible conversations, one about racism against Teladi ("slimy green lizards"), one about the new highways, and one about the virtues of holodancers. No way to skip these conversations, if you want the attendant benefits. Also, station interiors are largely identical within each major region, so if you spend a lot of time in one area, like in the beginning of the game, gets old fast. Then there's the fact that Egosoft thought it would be a good idea to litter stations with crates and lockers for you to liberally steal from. Often right in front of guards. It's absurd and completely out of place; I think they probably realized that there's so little to do in their stations that they felt they needed to entice us with goodies; but they don't fetch a very good price and finding buyers is usually more trouble than it's worth. Unfortunately, walking around stations is a mandatory and important part of the game, because you need crew to run your ships (although given the fact that your ships largely do nothing, maybe it doesn't matter after all). This can eat up an enormous amount of time, trying to find the right NPC (especially if you want to see if they're good at their job before hiring them), and it's extremely not fun.

The game is terrible. Do not buy it. In 6 months it might be mediocre. In a year or two, depending on how much is exposed to modders and whether or not this game will actually be able to maintain X's large modding community, it might be good. But I've already seen many of the most prolific modders express extreme dissatisfaction with the game, and a couple who said they probably won't even buy it. So... :-\

I have not been this disappointed since the new SimCity (I was smart enough to wait for reviews before buying that, though).

syneris

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2013, 01:37:41 AM »
How sad  :'(


It sounds like they took out everything cool about the previous games.

Tool_dc

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2013, 06:14:28 AM »
Well that sounds... bad O_o

That's sadly another example of developers making awesome game series, and then ruining them horribly.

Let's hope they patch up and fix this mess...

Stickle

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2013, 08:59:16 AM »
How sad  :'(


It sounds like they took out everything cool about the previous games.

What confuses me is how confused their game design is for Rebirth. They wanted to make a more accessible game that could appeal to a wider audience, so the stripped out everything that they deemed complicated. But they left in the content that that complexity was meant to interface with, so now there are just swaths of the game that exist but serve no real purpose, because you can't really use them. They decided to make the interface with an Xbox controller in mind, presumably to ensure that it wouldn't be as daunting as all the menus and the pages of hotkeys in X3... But as a result they made an even more obtuse interface than before, because even with all the reduced sophistication of the game, there is no way to efficiently manage a simulation game that spans combat, trade, building, and possessing other ships like X does with just the handful of buttons and knobs on a controller. So everything is buried away (and then they compounded this by locking the UI to that center panel in the ship, organizing all information terribly and hiding most of it away deep inside menus or forcing you to spend 10 minutes walking around a cookie-cutter space station trying to find the appropriate NPC).

In their attempt to make a simpler, more accessible game, they instead made an even more confusing and complicated one that nonetheless does less than its predecessors. X Rebirth is not supposed to be X4, but it functionally is, it's just a bad one. They have the same motto, the have the same general features, they're just incomplete, badly designed, and/or broken. If they wanted a simpler game they should have left the empire managment aspect out of it. Don't give us fleets to control or stations to build, just a ship and a world, like Privateer or Freelancer. It might've been a good game then, even if it wouldn't be an X game in anything but name. But they didn't just take the game in a different direction, they started digging.

That's not to say they did nothing right. In the long-term, the first-person aspect could potentially be fleshed out and made interesting/fun/optional (especially if they bring it to capital ships). The game is pretty (although I preferred the starkness of X3's space to Rebirth's, I kind of feel like I'm constantly flying around red light districts with all the neon lights and fog). The space-facing station design is really cool, ship design is generally pretty awesome (although textures are terrible). The tutorial/early campaign would be a huge step up from their previous games, if not plagued with countless serious bugs (and some fragility issues, apparently - you can break the campaign if you do certain things outside of the campaign). The seamlessness of most of the world is very nice, and when the highway graphics don't block your view excessively (it often does), the views while traveling are pretty stunning.

But the actual core of the game is itself confused and poorly implemented, and the result is a bad X game; it isn't really something new and different, it's just less, in fancy clothing.

Kelderek

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Re: X-Rebirth
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2013, 09:44:53 AM »
I'm trying hard to get my money's worth by continuing to play, but it's really hard to stick around with so much of the game that is so bad.

The game design is definitely flawed.  Managing your trade ships takes a ridiculous amount of time.  Egosoft said something like "we made it take a long time to trade to encourage you to do other things at the same time".  The problem with that is you have to babysit your traders a little bit in order for them to work.  If they are going to build an X game without SETA then they need to speed up the base trading times by a bigger amount

There are some things that may get better with increased game play.  For example I know there is a trade computer you can buy eventually that allows you to see trade offers within about 10km from a station instead of needing to get super close to each of the trade spots.  There are better scanners that may help with that too.  I suspect that the beholder drones may be better at unlocking information on stations, but I haven't tried that yet.

I know that you can assign ships to each other or to a station that you own, so I believe it will be possible to have a small defense fleet guard your stations, but who knows if that will work at all.

The center console info screen is a real pain in the ass.  I hate not being able to see things in a HUD format.  The animation of turning sideways is awkward and the data you need is often too many layers deep.  I even had my screen disappear on me -- just one of the many bugs I encountered -- I couldn't access ANY of my vital info or manage my ships until I landed at a station and could access the screens while on foot inside.  I eventually discovered a workaround to avoid this bug, but that really sucked.

I keep having all sorts of issues with trading.  The UI will allow you to make a trade and it deducts the money from your account instantly and allocates the space on your trade ship instantly, but then the actual trade has to happen physically when the ship gets there.  The final trade itself will often bug out and I don't get any of the items I purchased, yet my money is gone.  I tried upgrading my trade ship (which is actually a construction ship) with some more Cargolift URVs (I only had 1), I spent 150k credits on it, but the URVs were never delivered due to a bug with the fact that an NPC ship was being constructed at the same time and my ship looked like it was waiting in line to dock.  Eventually I got a message that the upgrade was complete and yet I did not get the stuff I bought and now the construction ship follows me around like it has no pending assignments.

Game companies seem to be following an unsettling trend lately with dumbing down a game in hopes of appealing to a broader audience, but they end up failing to appeal to ANY audience at all.  Sim City was a great example of this.  The sad part is I thought Egosoft was different, I never imagined they would make such drastic changes to a game series that was so well loved.

This is extra painful for me because of how poor I am and the fact that the $50 was hard for me to fit into my budget.  I guess the lesson learned from this is to stop pre-ordering games that haven't been reviewed by the public or that I haven't been able to beta test yet.