June 20, 2018, 05:27:05 PM

Author Topic: 'Retreat if equipment mismatch' option, and armor health  (Read 2032 times)

Psycho Romeo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
'Retreat if equipment mismatch' option, and armor health
« on: July 16, 2013, 02:42:06 AM »
As the title describes, 'Retreat if equipment mismatch' option in formations/positions, or even in uniforms.  Similar to 'Retreat if bleeding', this option would cause a gnome to retreat from combat when its current equipment does not match it's uniform, and acquire new armor/weapons before returning to battle. 

I think this would be a step towards armor having a permanent health value, over the combat instance health value armor has now. 

Another step would be having training grounds (perhaps in conjunction with the labor of an armorsmith) have a restorative effect on armor health. 

Another option would be to have armor go down in quality as their durability goes down.  A poorly made breastplate is the closest to breaking where as a finely made breastplate is in great condition.  I believe gnomes will always attempt to pick up fine breastplates over poor breastplates.  Players can monitor their soldier's equipment and craft replacement armor as necessary.  With a little stock pile management I bet the smelter can melt down those poor armor pieces easily enough. 


Two and a half suggestions.  Discuss. 

KyoNeko

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 102
    • View Profile
Re: 'Retreat if equipment mismatch' option, and armor health
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2013, 02:54:13 AM »
I am acually in favor of having real armor durability and having it break at one point, specially the degrading quality. The only thing that bothers me is that if you smelt anything you only get back half of what you used on it. ex. Made a armor with 10 bars, then smelt it and you get 5 bars back. Even if the armor breaks into pieces, then eiter these pieces nees to smelt back to a proper amount or just breaks down into the same items it was  made from so it can be put together again by a blacksmith. Because losing bars each time a armor breaks will make us go broke on steel sooner or later.

Merry76

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3451
    • View Profile
Re: 'Retreat if equipment mismatch' option, and armor health
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2013, 01:51:43 PM »
If armour breaks nowadays, it disolves into its components, and can be reforged without loss. Not sure if that stays.

The retreat if armour mismatch would be super crappy if you havent enough parts to equip your soldiers with as the combat starts - they would suddenly run to the hills, without fighting at all, if they wouldnt have a matching set.

You could say that they would only do that when there is gear to replace the broken part, but that would fix one broken thing (the current armour system can only be viewed as such) with TWO broken things, as it would make gnomes invulnerable death machines if you engineer the combat to happen in your armoury. That should not happen as it would outright break the game permanently.
Have a problem or a fortress so awesome it needs to be shared?

Well, go on, dont be shy! Use the GnomeworldPool Dropbox account!
How to share Savegames

Tearlach

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: 'Retreat if equipment mismatch' option, and armor health
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 03:00:59 PM »
As opposed to the invulnerable death machine they are now?

The problem with armour is not if it breaks or not, it is that currently that gnomes in armour lives and gnomes out of armour dies.

I think the solution lies not with armour break but instead with tweaking how much damage armour absorbs.


I really like the system that dwarf fortress employs, with hits being partially absorbed by armour and the advanced medical system that is used to correct injuries. Not sure if the system is suitable to Gnomoria though, seeing as it is more arcady than dwarf fortress.

dramamine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
    • View Profile
Re: 'Retreat if equipment mismatch' option, and armor health
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 03:11:41 PM »
As opposed to the invulnerable death machine they are now?

The problem with armour is not if it breaks or not, it is that currently that gnomes in armour lives and gnomes out of armour dies.

I think the solution lies not with armour break but instead with tweaking how much damage armour absorbs.


I really like the system that dwarf fortress employs, with hits being partially absorbed by armour and the advanced medical system that is used to correct injuries. Not sure if the system is suitable to Gnomoria though, seeing as it is more arcady than dwarf fortress.
Well, regardless of what the goal is, the current situation where unarmored gnomes will run back into battle just to die is kind of silly/inconvenient, and some sort of setting that will have them go and seek out new armor would be an improvement.

I think the suggestion in the OP is probably the simplest one that would have the desired effect. It would probably have to be something like "Avoid fights if not equipped", and then uniforms would have to distinguish between "any armor/weapon or none", and "any armor/weapon" so that you could set up a uniform where a gnome will run and grab leather/bone or something if there weren't any plate armors available, but won't run into battle without any armor at all.

Tearlach

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: 'Retreat if equipment mismatch' option, and armor health
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 03:45:28 PM »
An option to have underequipped gnomes not participate in battle is certainly a good idea. However, one of my best stories is how a single warrior held back an mant invasion wielding his deadly "orange of death"while his fellow brethren were down in the mines for some zombie clubbing. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I'd be glad if such a check only checked the armour part of your loadout. It'd also be interesting what would happen to your gnome if he would lose a leg and thus be unable to equip the full armour set.

dramamine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
    • View Profile
Re: 'Retreat if equipment mismatch' option, and armor health
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2013, 04:27:13 PM »
An option to have underequipped gnomes not participate in battle is certainly a good idea. However, one of my best stories is how a single warrior held back an mant invasion wielding his deadly "orange of death"while his fellow brethren were down in the mines for some zombie clubbing. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I'd be glad if such a check only checked the armour part of your loadout. It'd also be interesting what would happen to your gnome if he would lose a leg and thus be unable to equip the full armour set.
The loss of limbs is a good point, robobob would have to account for that possibility.

But that's what i was trying to get at with the "Any weapon" versus "any weapon or none", although I suppose technically it should be "any weapon", "any", or "any or none". If you had any selected, your gnome would be considered "equipped" as long as (s)he was holding something, but would be considered not equipped if (s)he was empty handed. A selection of "any or none" would mean that your gnome would use the best thing available, but would never avoid/leave combat just because (s)he was unarmed.

Psycho Romeo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: 'Retreat if equipment mismatch' option, and armor health
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 08:09:12 PM »
Ultimately, regarding armor health, I think Tearlach brings up the strongest point.  It just seems too simple that armor is just a subtank of health and I think ultimately the better situation is to have something similar to dwarf fortress where blunt damage is transferred to the person's body after receiving a hit.  I believe dwarves will seek out a hospital when they have heavy internal damage like broken ribs, over continue fighting.  I bet a lot of the clunkiness has to do with health potions bandages acting the way they do. 

However, this is a suggestion for another post.  Like para-goblin launching catapults. 

Current game play is such that if the fight lasts longer than your armor, your chances of losing a gnome goes up very quickly.  I believe the first change I suggested will push fights to be a drawn out battle of attrition over a hammaxe dps fest. 

I think limb loss wouldn't actually cause problems, as it currently does not cause problems when a gnome attempts to put on its uniform.  I assume there's something that tells a gnome to stop looking if it doesn't have the means to equip something.  Either that or the gnome equips it and it immediately just falls off, which probably would cause a problem. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:52:54 AM by Psycho Romeo »