June 18, 2018, 12:29:57 AM

Author Topic: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?  (Read 8859 times)

Merry76

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3451
    • View Profile
First of all, its kind of my own fault. I love Claymores, as they are stylish weapons of proud warriors (or barbarians... but thats basically the same).

So I rolled a new world, and named it "Land of Claymores" - Yeah, thats how creative I am.
The idea/strategy behind it to just use swords, preferrably Claymores to defeat all enemies - with a little helping of blunderbusses, whenever they become available.

I soon found out that the training speed outright sucks with Claymores, as exp seems to be gained "by hit" or something: The "Scrapper" Uniform (basically a "any Armour" Uniform with 2 swords instead of a big one) outpaced the Claymores in training quite quickly.

I then found out that the gnomes where hamsters when it comes to weapons. They took up copper claymores, despite everyone having a bronze one already, and used the copper one for combat - the other vanishing in the "victorias secret compartment" they seem to have since a few patches back. Giving them "none" for a second and releasing their squad from their post was an easy fix, but had to be done regularly. Annoying.

And then the final verdict: They cant hold a candle to the hammer/axe combo i usually go for (because its imbalacedly strong, and we cant really proove something is bad unless tried out. So I went and tried this). I expected them to simply TEAR through ogres, as they had more or less "the optimum" weapon (heavy hitting weapon that is capable of dealing the optimal damage) against ogres at hand. Guess what? Ogres are the new honey badgers. They just dont care. Not only that, they frequently got their breastplates destroyed against equal equipped enemies while being in a numerical advantage (meaning the combat dragged on for far too long). They managed to cut off unprotected legs and arms of goblins, and FAILED to kill said goblins, hammering uselessly on helmets and breastplates - the goblin dies of bleeding.

And then, one day in winter (first year), this happens: 1 twoheaded ogre, 1 Goblin with iron helm and breastplates, 2 fully iron clad goblins and a full steel goblin attacks, while 8 gnomes are on duty. My gnomes have mostly iron claymores, so this should at least put a dent in the enemies (the steel one is tough, alright).
I ran the fight several times (to eliminate RNG). I loose every time, only killing the half protected goblin. The others go without scratches. To add insult to injury, the killed goblin dies within the first minutes of the fight, then its 8 vs 4, and we cant scratch them, despite being adequatly armoured (the breastplates break first - most are made of iron), better trained (all sword skills in the 40-50 range) and in a vast numerical advantage.

Now, I know this things happen, and I kind of expected it (going all out on a weapon type I have long since suspected to not be of much use, despite being pretty (cool)). But isnt that a wonderful proof that claymores need a bit of a buff? (I would bring the "penetrating armour" mechanic up again, but then that hardly does help here). I am pretty sure if I geared myself with hammer/axe combo, those goblins would have been mincemeat.

I could repeat the experiment with warhammers and waraxes - but tbh. I want to save myself the trouble, and ask here if anyone has tried already.

To prove that I havent done anything horribly wrong, here is the save before everyone will die: LandOfClaymores_WeLoveLoosing.sav

Now to the little analysis bit: (We take this into consideration: http://www.gnomoriawiki.com/wiki/Weapons_and_Armor)
I rarely broke armour (post copper). It seems armour is only "balanced" when its tested against hammers, and against everything else it is too good.
I read somewhere that 2handead weapons do double the damage that one handed weapons do. However, it feels like they do only half the attacks which negates the higher damage, and puts it actually LOWER than dual wielding.
If the damage resistance gets deducted before substracting the dealt damage from the "sustains" value, 2 handed weapons SHOULD be better than 1 handed ones. By far.
If the wiki is right, piercing damage should be better to damage armour. This would mean that Battle Axes are even worse to fight armoured enemies (as the piercing bit gives claymores a greater damage potential against armour).
Now if a normal iron armour can sustain 16000 Slashing and 6200 Piercing, and receiving 15000 slashing - how much piercing would it still be able to sustain? If its 6200 (meaning both sustaining pools are separated) this would explain a lot. If its 387.5 (1/16 of 6200) it would be at least fair, and not horribly, utterly broken.

The damage values that are on the wiki tell a brutal tale however: If a slashing weapon needs to deal 5x the damage a hammer does, and the "block" value does what I think it does (deduct from the damage before the sustain value is substracted) then slashing (and to some extend) piercing weapons do not come close to hammers. Hammers have a 6-10 times lower blocking value? Not only do they need to deal with less sustain values, they also have less block value?

Ok, I am done. Reading through it again, i am aware it sounds like whiney - however, I couldnt care less. I can deal with loosing. I partially did it to loose, since I already know a strategy that works (frenzy hammer/axe, the best defense squad perk), and wanted to check/prove if there is anything else that would work. Because it didnt, and it didnt in a spectacular visible way, i wrote this text wall.

So, thoughts, anyone?
Have a problem or a fortress so awesome it needs to be shared?

Well, go on, dont be shy! Use the GnomeworldPool Dropbox account!
How to share Savegames

Faark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2013, 12:56:27 PM »
Wow.
Your post is kind of mind-blowing, since for me it seems most of your observation are correct.


I soon found out that the training speed outright sucks with Claymores, as exp seems to be gained "by hit" or something: The "Scrapper" Uniform (basically a "any Armour" Uniform with 2 swords instead of a big one) outpaced the Claymores in training quite quickly.
This is correct & should definitively be changed.


Breaking armor: Your are right, it looks like the damage done to armor is separated by damage type and it would most likely not make sense to use weapons of different dmg types together, at least in terms of trashing armor.
When will your gnomes start flooding your kingdom with legendaries? - Check out my mods! - Want to create mods yourself? Here is a early draft of a modding tutorial. Just checking by here infrequently these days, but feel free to PM me!

n1njachicken

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2013, 01:08:48 PM »
Any two handed weapon sucks for training.  I tend to set up a group of warhammers, to train with two hammers for awhile till it gets to around 100, then let them loose on the mobs.  You're right though, as it's very slow training them with their 2h weap. So much quicker doing it with 2, 1handed weaps

Sellardohr

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2013, 01:49:31 PM »
I also had my suspicions about armor requiring each damage type to fill up separately. That's pretty dumb, 'cuz it makes mixed tactics -- take, even, the classic sword and shield! -- selected against. In fact, swords and claymores, which split their damage type, are automatically crappy.

The only silver lining is that swords and claymores would work better in conjunction with ranged troops, which do all piercing.

Still, if that's the way it works, it really ought to change, fast!

Show Gnomercy!

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2013, 06:38:15 PM »
I thought that using the decapitation perk with swords I would also get a decent result. But nope. Half my melee soldiers wear axe/hammer and the other half Claymore. Almost all of the axes and hammers are Legendary, while none of the Claymores are.

We don't need to think too much to watch this happen. I agree with all of you guys, two-handed weapons are bad right now and Claymores are the junk tier of it.

Maybe if it was easier to decapitate goblins through armor or make them bleed to death (quickly, before the gnomes' armors get completely smashed), swords would be ok.

Or if the whole mechanic changed to something like two different ways of damage: against armored or against unarmored limbs/chest/whatever. Instead of breaking armor BEFORE the gnome/goblin get hit, the armor could reduce a % of the damage received.
Quote
Hammer (100% Blunt)
Damage@armored: 10 health damage, 20 armor damage.
Damage@naked: 15 health damage.

Axe (100% Slashing)
Damage@armored: 5 health damage, 10 armor damage, 5% chance to decapitate.
Damage@naked: 25 health damage, 10% chance to decapitate.

Sword (50% Slash/50% Piercing)
SlashDamage@armored: 5 health damage, 10 armor damage, 5% chance to decapitate.
SlashDamage@naked: 20 health damage, 5% chance to decapitate.
PiercingDamage@armored: 15 health damage, 5 armor damage, +5% chance to cause bleeding.
PiercingDamage@naked: 15 health damage, +15% chance do cause bleeding.

Ranged Weapon (100% Piercing)
Damage@armored: 10 health damage, 5 armor damage, +5% chance to cause bleeding.
Damage@naked: 10 health damage, +15% chance do cause bleeding.

Hammer (100% Blunt)
Damage@armored: 0 health damage, 5 armor damage.
Damage@naked: 5 health damage.
Obs.: Rarelly used, something like 10-30% of the times, instead of 50%. It also gives a chance to block completely a hit, which is awesome.
This way the weapons will have its singularities while maintaining a certain restriction.
Two-handed weapons would be normalized to be as effective as dual-wielding in training (Frenzy Perk doesn't add more exp, and you get the double exp when a two-handed weapon hits) and in combat (maybe buffing Highlander perk to use Leather/Bone Armor as well?).

The numbers are just examples, just to illustrate my idea. What do you guys think? Also, there's a topic somewhere saying that armors are way too strong. Gnomes need to be less dependant on armor. When the armor breaks, they basically get 1 shot to death.

I may be wrong, but I think something around these lines would make swords as cool as they can be.

Yes, gnomes would get injured every fight, and maybe they could get more "scars of war" building up everytime they get hit (Constitution?), increasing their health.
Lightly injured gnomes can stand the pain and can take their time in the hospital later, medium injured gnomes will need to bandage themselves to recover a little and severe injured gnomes would withdrawl from combat directly to the hospital.

This is a bit too much, but I would love to see something like that.

R86

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 412
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2013, 10:11:26 PM »
I haven't played a pure weapon playthrough, but next time I start a game up I'll do great hammers. With high enough skill maybe they can smush the heart through the ogre pelt.

Then after that kingdom dies I'll do a pure shield one. ;)

wsensor

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2013, 10:18:43 PM »
Maybe give the gnomes 3 or 4 more skill proficiencies to train?

1: Single weapon 1 handed
2: Single weapon and shield (Important as this effects shields!)
3: 2-Handed weapon (Gives bonus damage/effect based on skill level accumulative with single handed weapon type bonus.)
IE: Using a Claymore will be effected by Swords and 2-Handed proficiencies.
4: Dual-Wielding (When you first start fighting you should have trouble using 2 weapons lets say 50%/25% and go up as this skill is raised higher so this would effect it somewhat.)
IE: Using 2 swords would be effected by swords and dual-wielding. This would also affect how you train your troops as you would want to equip their better skilled weapon in the primary hand.

hydragorgon

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2013, 10:49:53 PM »
I'm really glad you posted this Merry.

On my new kingdom I'm testing whether 2 hand weapons have any value at all.  Before recent patches they were unusable cause of the bandaging mechanic. Most of my previous playthroughs were dual hammer centric.  I'm not gonna deny hammers are by far the most effective weapon.  I just got tired of smashing up all the goblins armor.

Claymores appear to be the worst weapon in the game.  I think battle axes are decent, and warhammers crunch pretty well.  I also have a problem with 2 handers preferring obsolete  weapons sometimes.  And they train slower then dual wielders with the frenzy perk.

By having one 2 hander in each squad, I have found that I chop off a lot of ogre arms.  I think that massive damage is worth using them a bit.  I rarely use warhammers, cause dual hammers seem better in the blunt damage field.  Therefore I recommend battleaxes over claymores.  I bet in the future RoboBob will balance them a little better. 

hydragorgon

Bardodle

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 201
  • SURGEON OF DEATH
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2013, 10:58:23 PM »
I tried what n1njachicken have done, After my gnome skill reach 100+ plus I switch them to 2H-Weapons and they dispose enemies very fast. Actually they can 1 hit kill an enemy only if they hit the "Right Enemy"

Lonestar51

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2013, 07:08:19 AM »
cool story, bro. ;-)

And nice to know what has been widely suspected.

ezryder914

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2013, 06:46:18 PM »
I thought that using the decapitation perk with swords I would also get a decent result. But nope. Half my melee soldiers wear axe/hammer and the other half Claymore. Almost all of the axes and hammers are Legendary, while none of the Claymores are.

We don't need to think too much to watch this happen. I agree with all of you guys, two-handed weapons are bad right now and Claymores are the junk tier of it.

Maybe if it was easier to decapitate goblins through armor or make them bleed to death (quickly, before the gnomes' armors get completely smashed), swords would be ok.

Or if the whole mechanic changed to something like two different ways of damage: against armored or against unarmored limbs/chest/whatever. Instead of breaking armor BEFORE the gnome/goblin get hit, the armor could reduce a % of the damage received.
Quote
Hammer (100% Blunt)
Damage@armored: 10 health damage, 20 armor damage.
Damage@naked: 15 health damage.

Axe (100% Slashing)
Damage@armored: 5 health damage, 10 armor damage, 5% chance to decapitate.
Damage@naked: 25 health damage, 10% chance to decapitate.

Sword (50% Slash/50% Piercing)
SlashDamage@armored: 5 health damage, 10 armor damage, 5% chance to decapitate.
SlashDamage@naked: 20 health damage, 5% chance to decapitate.
PiercingDamage@armored: 15 health damage, 5 armor damage, +5% chance to cause bleeding.
PiercingDamage@naked: 15 health damage, +15% chance do cause bleeding.

Ranged Weapon (100% Piercing)
Damage@armored: 10 health damage, 5 armor damage, +5% chance to cause bleeding.
Damage@naked: 10 health damage, +15% chance do cause bleeding.

Hammer (100% Blunt)
Damage@armored: 0 health damage, 5 armor damage.
Damage@naked: 5 health damage.
Obs.: Rarelly used, something like 10-30% of the times, instead of 50%. It also gives a chance to block completely a hit, which is awesome.
This way the weapons will have its singularities while maintaining a certain restriction.
Two-handed weapons would be normalized to be as effective as dual-wielding in training (Frenzy Perk doesn't add more exp, and you get the double exp when a two-handed weapon hits) and in combat (maybe buffing Highlander perk to use Leather/Bone Armor as well?).

The numbers are just examples, just to illustrate my idea. What do you guys think? Also, there's a topic somewhere saying that armors are way too strong. Gnomes need to be less dependant on armor. When the armor breaks, they basically get 1 shot to death.

I may be wrong, but I think something around these lines would make swords as cool as they can be.

Yes, gnomes would get injured every fight, and maybe they could get more "scars of war" building up everytime they get hit (Constitution?), increasing their health.
Lightly injured gnomes can stand the pain and can take their time in the hospital later, medium injured gnomes will need to bandage themselves to recover a little and severe injured gnomes would withdrawl from combat directly to the hospital.

This is a bit too much, but I would love to see something like that.

The only downside I see to that is goblins use the same weapon types.  It would suck to have veteran gnomes in full steel armor with legendary weapons get decapitated because of a lucky percentage by a goblin fighter with an iron claymore or battle axe. :)
Some minds are like concrete,
all mixed up and permanently set.
   ---A Red Rose Tea Bag

Show Gnomercy!

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2013, 01:05:35 PM »
The only downside I see to that is goblins use the same weapon types.  It would suck to have veteran gnomes in full steel armor with legendary weapons get decapitated because of a lucky percentage by a goblin fighter with an iron claymore or battle axe. :)
Now that you mention it... Yes, it would be frustrating. I got 2 gnomes without hands and they are constantly staying in a corner as if they are depressed. It may be just a behavior bug, but that is... Depressing.

I remember when a rookie with a two-handed sword got his hand ripped off, so I just sent him to die in the field. Natural selection.

Maybe add it to perks instead? Or change the rulings of dismembering. I don't know, I just made some examples to illustrate the picture. To tell the truth, I have no idea how the system works right now. My gnomes chop a lot of limbers before they kill enemies, I'm using split hammer/axe and Claymore dwarves. I'll have to check which ones are chopping the foes, I don't check combat log that much.

Show Gnomercy!

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2013, 03:12:00 PM »
I've done some analysis of the combat log, filtering manually the hits from my claymore gnomes. Here are the results.

Quote from: Mazzle
HIT: Mazzle swings with her steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the left hand, slicing through the skin, slicing through the bone and slicing through the muscle

STATUS: The goblin lost his left hand and his left hand is bleeding

STATUS: The goblin drops the iron hammer

HIT: Mazzle swings with her steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the head, cutting the iron helmet and smashing the iron helmet

HIT: Mazzle swings with her steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the left leg, cutting the steel greave and smashing the steel greave

HIT: Mazzle thrusts with her steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the right head and poking the hide

HIT: Mazzle thrusts with her steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the lower body and poking the hide

HIT: Mazzle thrusts with her steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the left leg and poking the hide

HIT: Mazzle swings with her steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the left leg and slicing through the skin

STATUS: The goblin's left leg has been mangled and his left leg is bleeding

HIT: Mazzle swings with her steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the left arm, cutting the steel pauldron and smashing the steel pauldron
Sword skill: 77
Total hits: 8
Bleeds: 2/8
Limb removal: 1/8
Killing blows: 0/8


Quote from: Igor
HIT: Igor swings with his steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the lower body, cutting the iron breastplate and smashing the iron breastplate

HIT: The goblin stabs with his steel sword at Igor, hitting the mouth and poking the steel helmet

HIT: Igor swings with his steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the right leg, cutting the iron greave and smashing the iron greave

HIT: Igor thrusts with his steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the lower body and poking the hide

STATUS: The two-headed ogre's lower body is bleeding

HIT: Igor swings with his steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the right leg, cutting the hide and smashing the hide

HIT: Igor thrusts with his steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the upper body and poking the hide

HIT: Igor swings with his steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the left leg, cutting the iron greave and smashing the iron greave

HIT: Igor thrusts with his steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the right leg and poking the steel greave
Sword skill: 68
Total hits: 8
Bleeds: 1/8
Limb removal: 0/8
Killing blows: 0/8

Quote from: Myrt
HIT: Myrt thrusts with her steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the upper body, poking the skin, poking the ribs and piercing through the right lung

STATUS: The goblin's upper body is bleeding and is having trouble breathing

HIT: Myrt thrusts with her steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the right leg and poking the hide

HIT: Myrt swings with her steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the upper body, cutting the steel breastplate and smashing the steel breastplate

HIT: Myrt thrusts with her steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the right arm and poking the hide

HIT: The goblin stabs with his iron sword at Myrt, hitting the right arm and poking the steel pauldron

HIT: Myrt swings with her steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the left foot, cutting the hide and smashing the hide

STATUS: The two-headed ogre's left foot is bleeding

HIT: Myrt thrusts with her steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the upper body and poking the iron breastplate

HIT: Myrt swings with her steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the mouth, cutting the steel helmet and smashing the steel helmet
Sword skill: 48
Total hits: 8
Bleeds: 2/8
Limb removal: 1?/8  (I don't know how to put lung piercing in a category, but it seems to make the hit foe die quickly)
Killing blows: 0/8

Quote from: Cato
DEFEND: Cato thrusts with his steel claymore at the goblin but the goblin dodges the attack!

HIT: Cato swings with his steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the right arm, cutting the iron pauldron and smashing the iron pauldron

HIT: Cato thrusts with his steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the upper body, poking the skin, poking the ribs and piercing through the left lung

STATUS: The goblin's upper body is bleeding and is having trouble breathing

HIT: Cato swings with his steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the left leg, cutting the hide and smashing the hide

HIT: Cato thrusts with his steel claymore at the two-headed ogre, hitting the right arm and poking the hide

HIT: Cato swings with his steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the lower body, cutting the iron breastplate and smashing the iron breastplate

HIT: Cato thrusts with his steel claymore at the goblin, hitting the head and poking the steel helmet
Sword skill: 50
Total hits: 7
Bleeds: 1/7
Limb removal: 1?/7  (I don't know how to put lung piercing in a category, but it seems to make the hit foe die quickly)
Killing blows: 0/7

------------------

Nobody died from bleeding, so no killing blows at all for them.

I'm using Disarm perk in all of them, but it doesn't seem to change much anyway, since the rating of dismembering is low.

Yep, swords suck, claymores suck even more. None of their weapon have become Legendary. Almost every hammer is legendary, plus some axes and flintlock pistols. Pretty sad...

Edit: Extra info

Mazzle (Claymore) and Tickle are the real veterans. They are dedicated to my army since the kingdom was generated. Let's compare their stats:

Attributes
Mazzle: 155 fitness, 132 nimbleness, 145 focus.
Tickle: 166 fitness, 131 nimbleness, 154 focus.

Weapon skills
Mazzle: 68 fighting, 77 sword, 78 dodge, 12 armor.
Tickle: 78 axe, 95 hammer, 73 dodge, 21 armor.

Lifetime kills
Mazzle: 36 totals, 27 goblins, 1 ogre, 4 mants, 3 two-headed ogres, 1 golem.
Tickle: 173 totals, 60 goblins, 1 bear, 5 ogres, 98 mants, 8 two-headed ogres, 1 golem.

Mazzle used to fight in "way of gnome" early on before I got her a claymore. I think she had it before Year 2 though.

Quite depressing. Poor Mazzle.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 03:21:04 PM by Show Gnomercy! »

Lonestar51

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2013, 09:13:55 AM »
My gnomes do not have claymores, but I use sword-gnomes (dual wield swords) together with hammergnomes (dual wield hammer) and axegnomes (dual wield).
So every gnome specializes in a certain weapon, and the squad has a mix of all three types. I have three squads by now. Each squad was raised at the same time.The swordgnomes always have less kills than the other gnomes.

When taking into account that the swords do rely on hammers or axes for breaking the armor, swords sure seem to be a waste of good steel and good gnomes.

re1wind

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
    • View Profile
Re: Why do 2handed weapons (especially Claymores) suck so bad?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2013, 01:21:07 PM »
I haven't played a pure weapon playthrough, but next time I start a game up I'll do great hammers. With high enough skill maybe they can smush the heart through the ogre pelt.

Then after that kingdom dies I'll do a pure shield one. ;)

i think i tried that back when mants were deadly and easily murdered with torches.  4  gnomes in full steel armour with two shields with perks held out against 10-16 mants for a day or two, then died. :(