May 24, 2018, 02:53:51 AM

Author Topic: (Outdated)  (Read 3756 times)

HereticAlpha

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Indigo Children
    • View Profile
(Outdated)
« on: January 05, 2013, 11:27:58 AM »
(Removing This Post For a New, Updated and Better-Formatted Post)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 07:56:27 AM by HereticAlpha »
Wine, Song, Food and Fire

Merry76

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3451
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2013, 03:52:39 PM »
Thats a very expansive list.

RoboBob mentioned he has already planned some kind of magic.Not sure if its the same kind of magic you are suggesting.

Not so sure/happy about the mana recharge bit... Getting power from crystals may work, however someone better charge them up first. Having them lie in the rock precharged is a bit silly, and gnomes consuming (consuming a crystal? Not sure how that should work) a not regrowing source of power isnt going to make many people happy.

I would suggest (again) that gnomes have a rather small reservoir for magic (you called it magical affinity, wich serves thesame purpose) and pretty low power and up it with special gear, like magic robes, pointy hats magic jewellery and other silly things mages wear (for balancing reasons, these protect badly in combat). they channel their magical energy through a wand, rod, symbol or book wich can improve or execute one or two spell only (this limits what a gnome wizard will use - and prevent them from becoming imbalanced).
To cast more than one or two spells, they have a pouch wich contains cut and charged gems. everytime they run out of mana, they use a gem to recharge it. Gem gets converted into a normal cut gem in the process.

Gems can be recharged at a magic workshop, by putting in mana from the magicians pool. That does not increase the rate at wich you gain mana total though. It just stores it away in a convenient place. Charged gems are also very valuable (loot or trade) as they are basically "power in a can". Also gems, wich are valuable just by being gems.

If you want more mana out of your magician, give them a trance potion (made at the alchemist) wich makes them regenerate a lot of mana for storage or use, but makes them a bit woozie, and slow to react (blatant balancing at work, again). This might mean that you have a few gnomes working on potions, a few drinking them and storing the energy, and one or two using them and kicking butt.

This is quite work intense, wich is intended. We need things to do for gnomes, when we get more than now.
Have a problem or a fortress so awesome it needs to be shared?

Well, go on, dont be shy! Use the GnomeworldPool Dropbox account!
How to share Savegames

HereticAlpha

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Indigo Children
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2013, 04:49:35 PM »
Thats a very expansive list.

RoboBob mentioned he has already planned some kind of magic.Not sure if its the same kind of magic you are suggesting.

I haven't actually seen his posts regarding magic- so forgive me on that point, please.

Not so sure/happy about the mana recharge bit... Getting power from crystals may work, however someone better charge them up first. Having them lie in the rock precharged is a bit silly, and gnomes consuming (consuming a crystal? Not sure how that should work) a not regrowing source of power isnt going to make many people happy.

First and foremost, I see no reason why charged magical Crystals wouldn't be found in the ground much like ore. After all, it IS magic- one could argue the magical potential of the Gnomorian kingdom is found deep within the ground in the crystals.

Secondly, I don't see why Gnomes can't consume Crystals in a simple manner- just absorbing their energy until the crystal is depleted, or simply breaking the crystal and being imbued with magic. Doesn't seem like a major stretch of the imagination, really. :)

Finally, I said that mana WOULD recharge, but at a slower rate, much like a Gnome would sleep- it would be entirely possible to regain full mana, but Crystals are useful for when you want to just refuel INSTANTLY.

I would suggest (again) that gnomes have a rather small reservoir for magic (you called it magical affinity, wich serves thesame purpose) and pretty low power and up it with special gear, like magic robes, pointy hats magic jewellery and other silly things mages wear (for balancing reasons, these protect badly in combat). they channel their magical energy through a wand, rod, symbol or book wich can improve or execute one or two spell only (this limits what a gnome wizard will use - and prevent them from becoming imbalanced).
To cast more than one or two spells, they have a pouch wich contains cut and charged gems. everytime they run out of mana, they use a gem to recharge it. Gem gets converted into a normal cut gem in the process.

See, this is where I think we really differ, but I'm more than happy to address my points; Magical Affinity would be the amount of mana the Gnome has- sort of like knowing how much MP a character has, while the Mana stat would be displayed like Health; good, bad, exhausted, etc. What robes/hats/wands/tomes would do, rather than increase the amount of Mana the Gnome has, would be to DECREASE the requirement for casting spells, enchanting items, using powers, etc. They essentially will sacrifice armor and protection for the sake of utilizing magical abilities better.

As for different amounts of spells- think of Destructive Magic just like any other weapon, save with effects added, alongside the ability to cast most things at a distance.

However, the Magical "reservoir" comes into play when you consider this- you could have a Summoner/Destructive Wizard, but if he's utilizing his Summoning Magic, his magical affinity will be halved, or further. It's up to the player to find a decent balance between the two.

Gems can be recharged at a magic workshop, by putting in mana from the magicians pool. That does not increase the rate at wich you gain mana total though. It just stores it away in a convenient place. Charged gems are also very valuable (loot or trade) as they are basically "power in a can". Also gems, wich are valuable just by being gems.

I... think you just described what I'd been saying about the Crystals, though I'd rather have them separate from gems, and able to be found in the (super)natural earth. Merchants will sell Crystals for a steep price, but by the time the player is dabbling in magic, they'll more than likely have a good surplus of trade goods.

No, gems would serve a much different purpose- they would be encrusted in existing armors (Ruby-Encrusted Steel, Topaz-Encrusted Iron, Jeweled Leather, etc.) to give them a more powerful enchantment than they would have without the encrusting.

If you want more mana out of your magician, give them a trance potion (made at the alchemist) wich makes them regenerate a lot of mana for storage or use, but makes them a bit woozie, and slow to react (blatant balancing at work, again). This might mean that you have a few gnomes working on potions, a few drinking them and storing the energy, and one or two using them and kicking butt.

See, now we're getting into Alchemy, which I think has a lot of potential, both physically and magically, but I'd rather create a solid ground of ingredients and basic potions before dabbling into things with positive/negative effects.

This is quite work intense, wich is intended. We need things to do for gnomes, when we get more than now.

That's why I called the idea "Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack"- because it would revolutionize a LOT of the game and essentially be adding enough into Gnomoria to warrant being considered its own DLC.
Wine, Song, Food and Fire

Merry76

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3451
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2013, 01:17:51 AM »
Lets agree to disagree. The magic system you are suggesting differs completely from the one I would do, wich is fine. Afterall, RoboB0b will deceide what he wants to do with his magic system anyway. Getting inspiration from different ideas from the suggestions forum will definatly not hurt.

However, I really wouldnt separate crystals from gems. Gems are quite useless (other than being way too good for selling, and boosting your Kingdom worth more than anything that is actually useful) at the moment, and it would give us a need to dig the buggers out. If they are used as spell chargers/ammunition and for enchanting gear (and for jewellery, wich might get a real use later on), this would give the player decisions how to distribute his gems, wich is a good idea.

As a side note: decreasing spell costs are quite a bad mechanic - it forces the programmer to use float wher he might prefer integer (you really do not want to have integer spell cost values that get decreased spell costs. This is very choppy, and doesnt really work). Then again, might as well use float, since we havent thousands of gnomes/enemies anyway :)
Have a problem or a fortress so awesome it needs to be shared?

Well, go on, dont be shy! Use the GnomeworldPool Dropbox account!
How to share Savegames

orbitmoria

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 946
  • All they do is dance!
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2013, 02:21:02 AM »
Lets agree to disagree. The magic system you are suggesting differs completely from the one I would do, which is fine.

I'd be really interested in your ideas for magic, being an experienced player of Gnomoria.

When RoboB0b mentioned putting in magic, which would be something you could research similar to Engineering, I immediately had a very clear idea of what he was talking about. Most things in the game would have a magic counter-part, since we already have brewing for beer, magic-users would have the option to brew potions (stat boosts and healing). We can craft weapons and armor, so magic users would be able to enchant them. We can build mechanisms, magic-users would be able to build magical devices for fort defense. B0b also mentioned the possibility of golem creation, which is pretty different from what we have now, but it's still crafting something. If we do get magic-using gnomes that can (A) Heal, or (B) Magic-Attack, then I think the "ammo" for this power will be similar to the sleep mechanic. They would only be able to do it so much before they had to rest, with the risk of falling asleep if they can't retreat. We have "sleep" and "hunger," and I assume that magic-users would also have a "mana" level they have to keep up through rest or meditating at shrines.

Anyway, that seems to fit Gnomoria very well. Plus, items are for crafting. If we do get more ores, they'll probably be for crafting magic-user buildings.

Kjell Bjarne

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 08:08:38 AM »
No magic in Gnomoria please!!!!!

Merry76

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3451
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 08:35:07 AM »
No magic in Gnomoria please!!!!!

Why not? It is a magical world, afterall. There are already skeletons and zombies, and Bugs that are not viable without a strong magical field. The magic basically is already there. Gnomes are traditionally very good with mechanics and magic (mostly illusion) wich serves us Ok.

From what I recall (you are free to dig out the post) RoboB0b fancies a either Magic or Tech route for your Kingdom, not both (for those who played Arcanum - that game had a very nice implementation of that). Implementing this will be hard however.

That also means, that people who dont want magic do not have to put up with magic (other than there might be wizards and necromancers that deserve a blunderbuss butt to to head from your gnomes).

Imagine something down the line of:

100 Tech Automatons, Limbs that have some applications that make them better than a normal limb, SCIENCE
75 Tech Guns, Replacement Limbs that have no negative effect, Steel
50 Tech Mechanical Walls, Iron
25 Tech Mechanical Traps, Bronze
0 Neutral
25 Magic Basic healing spells (staunches bleeding).
50 Magic Better healing spells (closes wounds), Curses that cripple enemies, buffs that make Warriors REALLY strong
75 Magic Mind control spells, Healing that lets limbs regrow (not the head)
100 Magic Mass affecting spells, Healing spells that let even heads regrow (if the target isnt dead for longer than X, or eaten)

(Of course not only healing spells, but you get a nice little ladder of awesomeness from healing. Apply to illusions, destruction whatnot)

Now you only have 100 points to spend.
You could go 25 Magic, 75 Tech, wich gets you some basic tool value from magic, yet nothing game breaking, and pretty nifty things from tech. Also pretty good metal with steel.
If you go all magic, you wont have the really strong armours (hurts magic anyway, we dont need that), but your magic could make up with that (buffing soldiers, crippling enemies and outright blasting them to bits).

Of course, not everything has to be in 25 er steps. Its just an example, you know.

What definatly should be in is that both sides of the spectrum need more or less the same ressources. There shouldnt be something that can only be used by magicians, and something thats only useful for technomancers. Crystals/Gems (for me its the same thing, for HereticAlpha its not) for examples could power the automatons (dont ask how, its how these things work in fantasy worlds...), or power magic wands. Two applications, one Ressource. Strawberry seeds could be made into oil for machines (that idea really stuck for me...) or used in alchemical potions. Trees could be made into coal, or be hugged (not sure what that should do, but i guess the tree feels better about it).
Have a problem or a fortress so awesome it needs to be shared?

Well, go on, dont be shy! Use the GnomeworldPool Dropbox account!
How to share Savegames

Chiko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2013, 03:56:39 AM »
No magic in Gnomoria please!!!!!
You can always not use magic. I dislike guns in Gnomoria so I don't use them. I stick with crossbows. I imagine you would have the choice to ignore magic for you people as well.

Enemies with guns and magic? That's a different story, an interesting one too. :P

RhoOphuichi

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 11:27:36 AM »
I love this - it's a thoroughly thought through consideration of a complete system for magic. I only have one major criticism: magic, as you’ve outlined it, overlaps with existing game structures in its abilities. While I think some overlap is fine, I’d suggest a few changes to make magic different both in how it feels and how it plays.
I feel that magic shouldn’t significantly overlap with existing game mechanics in the options and abilities it grants the player. If magic gives the same end result as an existing mechanic, it should do so in a very different way. For example, magical combat shouldn’t be the same as using a crossbow – it should feel different to the player, and if possible it should have different in-combat utility. Instead of gnomes zapping away with lightning, I’d suggest options like preventing enemy movement, knocking them back, slowing their attacks, chained damage, in-combat healing of allies, etc.
I’d also differentiate magic by removing it from mining. Instead of mana-per-gnome, instead of mana crystals, I suggest that mana be in a single pool for the entire colony, slowly generated by special workshops (I picture gnomes standing around a glowing magic circle, chanting and swaying). I’d love a large (maybe 5x5) workshop that can be used by several gnomes at once, again giving magic a different feel from other parts of the game. I propose that magic be discovered through research, like tinkering, but via research at a library.
Instead of the plethora of workshops you listed, I’d consolidate things down into just a couple of basic buildings (the magic circle for mana, the library for research, maybe someplace to train as well) with a few specialty shops as needed (alter, summoning circle, enchanter’s shop, etc). I’d split alchemy out totally – I love adding it to gnomoria, but I think it’d be easy to implement without regard to magic as just another type of shop. It could make dyes, soaps, potions, poisons, transmute metals, etc.

On a less critical note, I’d also suggest options that allow magic to combine with existing game mechanics in interesting ways. Think teleportation instead of stairs; transmutation of metals so you needn’t dig so deeply; magical creation of new materials, magically-powered “steam” engines, etc etc etc.


Imagine something down the line of:

100 Tech Automatons, Limbs that have some applications that make them better than a normal limb, SCIENCE
75 Tech Guns, Replacement Limbs that have no negative effect, Steel
50 Tech Mechanical Walls, Iron
25 Tech Mechanical Traps, Bronze
0 Neutral
25 Magic Basic healing spells (staunches bleeding).
50 Magic Better healing spells (closes wounds), Curses that cripple enemies, buffs that make Warriors REALLY strong
75 Magic Mind control spells, Healing that lets limbs regrow (not the head)
100 Magic Mass affecting spells, Healing spells that let even heads regrow (if the target isnt dead for longer than X, or eaten)

(Of course not only healing spells, but you get a nice little ladder of awesomeness from healing. Apply to illusions, destruction whatnot)

Now you only have 100 points to spend.
You could go 25 Magic, 75 Tech, wich gets you some basic tool value from magic, yet nothing game breaking, and pretty nifty things from tech. Also pretty good metal with steel.
If you go all magic, you wont have the really strong armours (hurts magic anyway, we dont need that), but your magic could make up with that (buffing soldiers, crippling enemies and outright blasting them to bits).

I don't like this idea - it removes options from the player, which I never like, and unless it's perfectly balanced, the 'weaker' option will be rarely used. This is one thing I like about my idea above - giving magic a different 'sphere of influence' from tech makes it viable to choose either option, or both. If RoboB0b wants to encourage a players to pick one option, I'd rather encourage such behavior in-game. For instance, make tech research slower as a player discovers more magic (and vice versa); tie some invaders to research progress (jealous dwarves invade high-tech gnomes; greedy elves invade magic kingdoms; when players are advanced in both areas, the dwarves and elves team up to attack. and they bring their buddies, the dragons). That sort of in-game limitation fits better into a sandbox game than an arbitrary mechanical restriction, in my view.

Merry76

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3451
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2013, 12:35:31 PM »
I like the chanting gnomes in Magic workshop thing  :D

My idea was more or less stolen from "Arcanum" - in that world, if you started to trust in technology, your magic affinity got worse. The more you believed in magic, the less you trusted the hard facts of science. It was somehow justified, and yet blatantly balancing.

The problem with "make research slower" is: gnomoria doesnt have a time limit. Just having to wait a year longer isnt going to mean anything in the long run, so there is no reason to put up such a limitation at all.

However the system I proposed doesnt mean you cannot "respec", by simply setting other priorities, and watch how your alignment changes:
Closing down the Gnomwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, and sending gnomes to the Transgnomian Polignostic University will slowly shift your alignment to (schizo-) Tech, doing it the other way round will do the opposite.
Fielding Blunderbustiers will give your people trust in technology (guns do that to people), while using a lot of magicks will do the same for magic.

Its just one system, however. I wrote it down to inspire RoboB0b, not force him to code it exactly like that  8)
Have a problem or a fortress so awesome it needs to be shared?

Well, go on, dont be shy! Use the GnomeworldPool Dropbox account!
How to share Savegames

RhoOphuichi

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2013, 09:17:19 PM »
Well, I don't necessarily have a problem with forcing the player to choose between options. I just think that, in this type of game, it's not the best way to go. I'm not sure what other 'soft' limitations could be implemented, but I prefer that solution. Good point about time though; it really isn't much of a limit. Having magic and tech use the same resources would be one way to limit the player...

But as I said - I'd personally prefer not to be limited. Just have magic do things that tech can't! and vice versa!

Merry76

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3451
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2013, 01:39:03 AM »
If both magic and tech used the same ressources - which ressources would that be? Currently "Tech" (meaning traps and mechanical walls) only uses metals and coal but only if you use steam engines.

There could be Torchlight style "Embers" that are used in both orientations (like they are in Torchlight) would be an option. (Cutting them from gems would be a way to create them).

What if the affinity was only a modifier to the efficiency in which this ressource-to-be-named? You could cast spells in a tech aligned kingdom, but it would be rather inefficient, requiring X more ressources than a magical kingdom would use.
Or you could create automatons/warforged in a magic aligned kingdom, but you would use more ressources for that.

Thats a pretty soft cap, by not being a cap at all.
I'd prefer hard choices (because getting everything makes it a bit bland), but thats just me.
Have a problem or a fortress so awesome it needs to be shared?

Well, go on, dont be shy! Use the GnomeworldPool Dropbox account!
How to share Savegames

HereticAlpha

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Indigo Children
    • View Profile
Re: Large-Scale Suggestion: Magic Kingdom Expansion Pack!
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 07:30:25 PM »
Wow, I'm really thrilled that people are really enjoying this idea, and even more so that some of the things mentioned have been implemented (to their own development schedule- I'm not about to take credit for suggesting anything that gets made. :] )

As for the idea of a Kingdom-wide Mana Pool... It's interesting, to say the least. I'm torn between the two, because while the kingdom pool would create a sense of familiarity (food, drink, mana), I feel like it devalues the progress individual gnomes could make. I like the idea of some gnomes having a greater potency than others, leaving the player to decide what they want to allocate this Gnome to, if anywhere at all. The kingdom-wide pool also seems useful in that it wouldn't cripple your army if that individual Gnome were killed (and if not crippled, at least stunted.)

I'll definitely give it some more thought. And while having to choose between tech and magic seems interesting, I ultimately find it unsatisfactory simply because I wouldn't want to limit what my Gnomes could make/do. Perhaps if there were something akin to a sandbox mode where the choice wasn't required, I'd be more pliant, but not under the current systems.
Wine, Song, Food and Fire