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Author Topic: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....  (Read 4665 times)

Caithleen

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Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« on: November 18, 2012, 02:35:10 AM »
I would suggest adding a third mode without mants for those who don't like the instant "game over - 20 mants" events ...

The goblins are just fine and deliver some nice and tough fights (ogre and full iron goblin did mow down some of my gnomes really fast).

But having 20 (around) mants spawn means instant armageddon. And no, i don't think searching the whole (huge) map every morning for the scout isn't fun either.

Food stocks are high, but since meat is counted there's no way to keep it constantly down without other things going insane (mass population of animals, which means more eggs, which ... oh my...).
Im allready dumping all Fruits and eggs to the merchants, but year 2, summer, i normally have around 800 meat waiting to be cooked into sandwiches. Seems this is sufficient to spawn those armageddons.

In a game centric to builing things up and stockpiling, how does limiting food in this manner fit in ? I still want my fat gnomes dining in the great hall full with barrels and crates of the good stuff.


Mythrrinthael

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2012, 06:01:10 AM »
As long as your food and drink sits under 2000 in total, it will not add to the Mants numbers. The rest is Kingdom Worth.

I wouldn't recommend going above 35-40k KW in the first year anyway. Focus on getting bronze weapons and armour. Pick a few gnomes during your first summer and drill them on the training grounds ASAP. Build their personal quarters nearby, same for very small stockpiles of food and drink. It helps closing off certain areas so enemies are forced to appear from which ever side you want them to. Don't forget that torchlight increases Gnomes' Line of Sight during the night.

kyoshi

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2012, 06:09:58 AM »
@Caithleen:

As of 0.8.19 the mant number is influenced by kingdom worth. Not by food+drink count alone. Food+Drink is contributing to kingdom value, hence give people wrong impression that mant is only attract by food+drink.

I think I mislead everyone with the food/drink thing :(  The number of mants that show up are primarily based on your Kingdom Worth.  If the combined food + drink amount is over 2000 it starts to add more mants.  After seeing how a lot of people have adapted to countering mants, I'm thinking about changing it so that that strategy actually works, ie low amounts of food/drink will decrease the base spawn amount and possibly allow you to avoid mants altogether if it's low enough.

If RoboBob fix this, there's a way to keep low stockpile food and that is by only using wheat as a food+drink source. And when our kingdom strong enough, we can "advanced" to other food source. I think this way it become more balanced, bigger kingdom means bigger threat.
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Caithleen

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2012, 06:38:31 AM »
Limiting to Bread+Beer is for dwarfes. (And a silly mechanic btw.)

I had 10 Gnomes in bronze/iron/first few steel pieces but the ants mow them down as if i had choosen paper as armor...

Looks like the trigger was, that i bought silver ore from merchants this summer. KW jumped up to 65K (from somewhat 20K before).


Sdarkon

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 07:28:58 AM »
The Mants have been my bane as well, Fort after fort has been annihilated by them, over and over again, I just had 5 soldiers, in all bronze armor and weapons, with steel breastplates, get steamrolled again, 5 gnomes with 30-50 hammer skill, 20-40 dodging, 30ish shield skill, they got stomped, again, food stocks were crtitically low, as in, under 100 (I was starving, lol) not that that really matters, Kingdom worth was under 20k.

I seriously dont know how to deal with them, 8 mants steamrolled my fort again, the only thing I can do is give in, and completely wall up so no one can enter or leave, and wait until I have 10 full steel soldiers, can I possibly be more prepared than steel/bronze soldiers by spring year 2?
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Merry76

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2012, 08:52:26 AM »
The Mants have been my bane as well, Fort after fort has been annihilated by them, over and over again, I just had 5 soldiers, in all bronze armor and weapons, with steel breastplates, get steamrolled again, 5 gnomes with 30-50 hammer skill, 20-40 dodging, 30ish shield skill, they got stomped, again, food stocks were crtitically low, as in, under 100 (I was starving, lol) not that that really matters, Kingdom worth was under 20k.

I seriously dont know how to deal with them, 8 mants steamrolled my fort again, the only thing I can do is give in, and completely wall up so no one can enter or leave, and wait until I have 10 full steel soldiers, can I possibly be more prepared than steel/bronze soldiers by spring year 2?

So you are saying that you sent off less people, who are less experienced in combat with on par equipment (bronze equals chitin, more or less), and expect to win?
Having a steel breastplate just means the chest and neck will be better prepared from getting hit. This does not mean their arms cant be chopped off or wounded so your soldier has to retreat, worsening the odds of the non bleeding soldiers even more. Somehow the "defend first, attack later" strategy has taken root - but seriously, had you taken that steel and made a hammer, the gnome wielding that thing would off a mant in a lucky hit. If he would not be able to land those, almost every hit that connects would wound or mangle a body part.

Ever sent nonarmoured gnomes against mants? Sending full steel gnomes against mants feels the same, but this time you are winning, without someone even bleeding. If you do not have full steel, steel weapons backed up with bronze armour feel almost the same, just with losses/wounds on your side.
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Lochar

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 12:26:59 PM »
As long as your food and drink sits under 2000 in total, it will not add to the Mants numbers. The rest is Kingdom Worth.

I wouldn't recommend going above 35-40k KW in the first year anyway. Focus on getting bronze weapons and armour. Pick a few gnomes during your first summer and drill them on the training grounds ASAP. Build their personal quarters nearby, same for very small stockpiles of food and drink. It helps closing off certain areas so enemies are forced to appear from which ever side you want them to. Don't forget that torchlight increases Gnomes' Line of Sight during the night.

My first game, I was under 20k wealth, most of that was from stockpiles. Most of my setup was still dirt, personal quarters were cheap, the main value was great hall at 500-1k.  I had total maybe 500 or less food.

Mants came, maybe not 20 but I never even took 1 down , and this was having 38 gnomes all attacking. Now granted, I am new and still learning the ropes but is a rude awakening.

I like a challenge but the mant invasion forces me to play a certain way.  I have seen the strategies of others and they are effective but why do I need to follow this path or wipe? This makes the game less open ended in my book. If I haven't developed my troops a certain way by spring its game over man.

I am on my 3rd attempt now, and I started a different strategy but it feels like I am min maxxing and I've always hated that in games. Its a almost guaranteed I win method but its not always the most enjoyable.

I am not condoning making the game any easier but don't force me to race to the finish line either. I like walking and smelling the air in a game. If I am a rich and powerful kingdom then try to take it from me, but if I am just a band of freshly arrived gnomes, don't beat me to death my first year.

Mythrrinthael

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2012, 12:55:11 PM »
I actually enjoy playing using a highly efficient self-taught formula, but I agree the Mants should be nerfed more. I like to think of myself as an experienced player, but not everyone is experienced nor should they need to be in order to have fun.

I still hear practically no soft whimpering on the forum about Spiders, though. Can't wait until more people run into those.

Lochar

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2012, 01:08:42 PM »
I actually enjoy playing using a highly efficient self-taught formula, but I agree the Mants should be nerfed more. I like to think of myself as an experienced player, but not everyone is experienced nor should they need to be in order to have fun.

I still hear practically no soft whimpering on the forum about Spiders, though. Can't wait until more people run into those.

Lol you mean there are OTHER monsters in the game besides Mants and Goblins?

And there is nothing wrong with your playstyle either, you can probably amass alot of wealth in a short time span and make yourself defensible early. Me I like to take time to level a farming orchard area, mine a few levels down and convert that raw stone into blocks to build my stuff with. But now I am just wasting time better spent on preperations for the coming invasion.

I honestly just think his triggers are off, unless come spring any wealth what so ever will trigger them. The other bad part is we dont get a merchant in winter which is fine but aside from consumables, this really adds to stockpile alot until 5th of Spring, by them its too late.

kyoshi

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2012, 01:24:26 PM »
I actually enjoy playing using a highly efficient self-taught formula, but I agree the Mants should be nerfed more. I like to think of myself as an experienced player, but not everyone is experienced nor should they need to be in order to have fun.

I still hear practically no soft whimpering on the forum about Spiders, though. Can't wait until more people run into those.

Lol you mean there are OTHER monsters in the game besides Mants and Goblins?

And there is nothing wrong with your playstyle either, you can probably amass alot of wealth in a short time span and make yourself defensible early. Me I like to take time to level a farming orchard area, mine a few levels down and convert that raw stone into blocks to build my stuff with. But now I am just wasting time better spent on preperations for the coming invasion.

I honestly just think his triggers are off, unless come spring any wealth what so ever will trigger them. The other bad part is we dont get a merchant in winter which is fine but aside from consumables, this really adds to stockpile alot until 5th of Spring, by them its too late.

Spider was the MOST BADASS monster in the game,...wait till you see them..
Fun !

But i never see them anymore since i only did a test build in the last 3 update, meaning i only dig to 18-20 depth. Maybe that's the reason why i never encounter Spider. Or maybe RoboBob nerf their spawn rates.

But i disagree with nerfing the mant further, i'd like to think that mant is the most toughest surface enemy.
I support the idea to restrict enemy spawn (rates/number) based on particular item and raid that item from player, it will make more sense and give player a power to control the enemy when he/she is ready to face that enemy.
For instance:
Goblin spawn number based on money/coin (if money was somehow implemented in the game rather than barter with merchant.
Mant was based on number of  food/drink.
Etc.

Btw, i think this post more appropriate in the Suggestion section since the OP stated that she suggest a Third Mode besides Peaceful and Normal
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 01:37:28 PM by kyoshi »
There's no need to manually count to place a torch, here's how :
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bvierra

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2012, 04:07:20 PM »
The way I believe it works is in sprint yr 2 mant scouts will show up pretty much not matter what. You just have to kill the mant scout and the mant soldiers never show up. The way I have found to do this is have 2 gnomes made into scouts from your spring year 2 immigration. The stats really don't matter. Give them a torch and weapon (I also do the leather armor so as to not effect speed) and the scout trait and the see farther with torch trait. Then give em a patrol route around your entire map and let em roam. Also make sure to have avoid enemies and retreat if bleeding, do not have them attack on order.


They see the mant pretty quickly and you then do an attack order on the mant scount. No mant attack force.
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Caithleen

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2012, 10:27:07 PM »
This makes sense but i don't see it working well on a huge map. Chance to miss him is higher and the defenders will take too long to get there and so you're killing 2 gnome scouts for a mant scout.

Yesterday i thought : Tiny map! (No chance to miss the mant scout).

And found out : it's unplayable. By day 3-4 i got a bear and since there was no space to evade ... gnomageddon ...

ezryder914

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 06:47:09 AM »
This makes sense but i don't see it working well on a huge map. Chance to miss him is higher and the defenders will take too long to get there and so you're killing 2 gnome scouts for a mant scout.

Yesterday i thought : Tiny map! (No chance to miss the mant scout).

And found out : it's unplayable. By day 3-4 i got a bear and since there was no space to evade ... gnomageddon ...

Trick to Tiny maps is to get a wall set up or a bunker for your gnomes to work in really quickly.  I initially have the entrance to my working area (pasture, fields, groves and basic workshops) as a snaking hallway.  Most things won't navigate all the way down a hallway that cuts back and forth more than 4 times (except for goblins on an attack route).

I start with dirt walls, then replace them with chiseled or block stone walls.  During year two depending on how well my guards have been training, I remove all or part of the snaking hallway, and add some traps, and badda bing badda boom; my entry control point.  :)
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lee

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2012, 09:35:59 AM »
I actually enjoy playing using a highly efficient self-taught formula, but I agree the Mants should be nerfed more. I like to think of myself as an experienced player, but not everyone is experienced nor should they need to be in order to have fun.

I still hear practically no soft whimpering on the forum about Spiders, though. Can't wait until more people run into those.
haha you might see that .... IF we got to see a spider before we get ant zerged...
new to the game .. loving a million parts of it .... but from a startupers stand point mants kind of ruin the fun .. on my 4th start... kind of stopped playing to be honest ... i dont want to see my efforts stomped again..
the ramp up in difficulty for the uninitiated is WAAAAAY to steep...
if your goal is for hardcore fans and that is it keep it as it is
want to have more than a 50% of your game buyers never make it past year 2 spring and quit keep it as is
if you want to make a good game that many enjoy give us some sort of difficulty option (ya know a learners mode) im not in favor of nerfing as others have said it is possible... just have a mode that eases the newbs into .. 
dont you fanboys say peacefull mode! tried it! its like gnomoria but without life..

skreyola

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Re: Normal, Peaceful, without mants....
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2012, 01:14:44 PM »
Peaceful mode is not for playing. Peaceful mode is for learning how all these items work, and for sandbox play.

For the rest, I've been convinced for a while that levels won't please anyone. What the game needs are difficulty options (some would call them toggles) that let the player choose what kind of spawns show up and what kind don't.