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Author Topic: I like this game, I do  (Read 19677 times)

jdturner11

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I like this game, I do
« on: November 03, 2012, 12:35:45 PM »

 I'm having fun with the demo. I play DF pretty extensively and decided to give it a spin with isometric 2D. But, I feel kind of... Guilty.... Even a little annoyed at times, the taking of someone's idea and hard work is kind of blatant.



 The art and graphics are great, I like the interface too, but it feels like this is piggy backing pretty heavily on Toady and taking advantage of his non-pricepoint/community's want for a friendlier interface. I'm sure you've heard all this before, it's the main criticism of the game, but I want to talk about it rationally with the Gnomoria fanbase.

  Here are a few questions to start the conversation. But please, don't get upset - remember we are only talking about video games here, nothing to get angry over.


- Do you/Did you treat Gnomoria as a kind of tutorial for Dwarf Fortress?

- Do you wish Gnomoria took more steps to differ itself from DF?

- How would you feel if by game release it was still a copy of DF's gameplay?

- Why did you buy the game?

- If you started DF AFTER playing Gnomoria, which do you prefer? If you played DF before, WHICH do you prefer? (This is assuming you can only play one or the other)

Mythrrinthael

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2012, 12:55:23 PM »
I played Dwarf Fortress before Gnomoria was but a twinkle in Robob0b's eye.

I consider DF and Gnomoria to be different. It frustrates me that people complain about everyone trying to "copy" Tarn. The Fortress-genre is finally getting a bit of a boost and it will not influence DF in the slightest, because Tarn is not that kind of guy. Years and years of him refusing to make a newbie-friendlier UI have proven this. His headstrong attitude to stick to his own ideas and plans for DF is famous.

How in the nine hells is anyone supposed to make a kingdom management game without somehow taking some elements from DF anyway, considering DWARF FORTRESS HAS EVERYTHING? Gnomoria will never be as deep in the exact same places DF is, nor does it need to. Robob0b is also going to have its own unique "things"; magic, for example. More will follow.

Machine

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2012, 01:02:50 PM »
First off, let me say I like dwarf fortress, I really do. But the constant bashing of gnomoria because it's a modern take of dwarf fortress is getting a bit old.

There is room in the video games industry for both to exist. Let me also say that as long as there is a demand for something, then there is something of value.

You cannot deny the many voices of gamers that have complained about dwarf fortress' lack of graphics and horrible UI. From what I remember Toady himself said that he had no plans to update the game for a modern audience. It was only a matter of time for someone else to take matters into their own hands.

Robobob has simply decided to make the game he himself wanted to play and to make a living doing it by selling to those said gamers. As much as I like dwarf fortress and all of its complexity, I am much more looking forward to the completed gnomoria.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 01:07:35 PM by Machine »

jdturner11

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2012, 01:20:41 PM »

 I'm already liking this community. Thanks for the quick and well thought out responses guys. I started this thread because my mind is never made up and I love to hear what other people think. I hadn't known about Tarn specifically stating how stubborn he is but you can certainly tell. Certainly a brilliant man, but his lack of focus and unwillingness/indefinite alpha state did hamper on what DF could have been.

 I also had a small inkling that since this game is a baby it hasn't had the chance to come into it's own. The argument that he's simply making a game he wants to play makes sense and it still is a cheap price. I bought minecraft when it just began because it's worth being part of the complete evolutionary process that is game development. I'm excited to see how Gnomoria turns out, I hope DF sees a more comprehensive direction soon, too. I certainly cannot complain about more games in this genre.

 Gnomoria, Overgrowth, Cortex Command........ My lord, indie is lookin' good.

 

ArwingXL

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2012, 01:39:01 PM »
I don't think the differences and simularities matter. The fact that people are angry when a derivative of a great idea is generated to appease the masses is a concept as old as reason itself.

Take for instance these derivatives:
prosumer cameras(Fuji HS20) vs. SLRS (example: Nikon d3000)
Albert Camus' Absurdist Philosophy vs. Existentialism/Nihilism
Samsung Galaxy vs. Iphone

In each case, the original supporting crowd for the latter examples are annoyed/angered by the production of the former derivative examples, which are usually simpler, cheaper, and geared torwards a larger audience. Once you get over this and apply the concept to gaming, it becomes a moot point. People wanted Toady to fix the look and feel of his game. Toady said no, and in a -very long response- (below) said he would refuse to work on the game entirely if he had to sacrifice his own enjoyment to appease the community.

Toady's response:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21806.msg237594#msg237594

So what do we do? We find someone else to do what he couldn't in so much time.

That aside, I was introduced to DF by gnomoria and play them both and like them both for different reasons. I find DF VERY humorous every time I play it, despite being the more intense of the two.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 01:47:06 PM by ArwingXL »

Xinvoker

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2012, 01:40:33 PM »
- Do you/Did you treat Gnomoria as a kind of tutorial for Dwarf Fortress?
No
- Do you wish Gnomoria took more steps to differ itself from DF?
Yes if it helps the Gnome theme, but I don't want it to go the Towns route and become too different. (I've also bought Towns)
- How would you feel if by game release it was still a copy of DF's gameplay?
Frankly, if it had all the functionality of DF, I'd be delighted.
Everytime I played DF I just wished somebody would copy the whole thing, except with a UI that makes sense.

- Why did you buy the game?
Because I enjoyed the demo and I saw the developer responding to community feedback.


I may indirectly sound harsh toward Toady. I don't mean to, the concept of the game he created is fantastic and he deserves all the credit for that.
But the implementation isn't, and he is not willing to improve it. He is making the game of his dreams, non-profit and good for him, it's not like he owes me/us anything.
I'm just glad new people are taking the concept/genre and giving it their own spin.

jdturner11

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2012, 01:49:06 PM »

 If you guys don't mind, I'd like to push forward the conversation a bit more. If there were one feature you'd want implemented from DF to Gnomoria, what would it be? This is assuming no bugs came with, it was fully developed, and worked?


 Mine would be Forgotten Beasts. I'd love to see the adaptation of this into Gnom's graphics, maybe the game would randomize a modular creature skeleton - selecting random parts (with their own abilities) and adjusting them all to the same color so you'd have a kind of coherent hodgepodge.

skreyola

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2012, 02:46:18 PM »

 I'm having fun with the demo. I play DF pretty extensively and decided to give it a spin with isometric 2D. But, I feel kind of... Guilty.... Even a little annoyed at times, the taking of someone's idea and hard work is kind of blatant.
This statement is a little irritating to me. While the idea may or may not have come from some other place, the hard work is definitely not from DF's author. Saying the hard work haas been taken from someone else is to completely discount the difficulty of programming.
That aside, ideas don't belong to anyone, only implementations. A modern author can retell the stories of the ancient Greeks and still be producing significant creative content. Every time an acting troupe performs a play, they are creating a distinct, new work, even if a hundred other troupes are performing the same play from the same script.
I don't feel at all bad for Nintendo if I play Sirtet or EITris, or even a perfect clone. The people who wrote those "copies" put in their own hard work and often added their own twists.
That aside, I don't think Gnomoria is a DF clone. As someone pointed out, DF has covered so much ground it would be difficult if not impossible to write a game in the same genre without having some overlap. Is Starcraft a clone of Warcraft? Games in the same genre will have a lot in common.

But to make my response better, I downloaded DF and played a little of it.

- Do you/Did you treat Gnomoria as a kind of tutorial for Dwarf Fortress?
No.

- Do you wish Gnomoria took more steps to differ itself from DF?
No. I think it's obvious RoboBob is doing his own thing and incorporating community suggestions without trying to either follow or diverge from DF.

- How would you feel if by game release it was still a copy of DF's gameplay?
I reject the premise, but I would be unhappy if Gnomoria became that complicated in terms of components... stuff. DF has a dizzying array of items, workshops, jobs, etc.

- Why did you buy the game?
I played the demo and loved it.

- If you started DF AFTER playing Gnomoria, which do you prefer? If you played DF before, WHICH do you prefer? (This is assuming you can only play one or the other)
Gnomoria, hands down. The ONLY thing I like better in DF is the music, but it's a fairly short loop and gets old pretty quickly, so nothing, really, is better in DF, from what I can see in a short test play.

Gnomoria's gameplay is, from my playing of both games, significantly different, and I can't understand why anyone thinks Gnomoria is supposed to be a copy of DF. From my perspective, they have different interface trees, different basics, and different attitudes.

I don't want DF features implemented in Gnomoria. I want features that make sense for what Gnomoria is.

Tool_dc

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2012, 03:23:12 PM »
- Do you/Did you treat Gnomoria as a kind of tutorial for Dwarf Fortress?
No
- Do you wish Gnomoria took more steps to differ itself from DF?
Yes if it helps the Gnome theme, but I don't want it to go the Towns route and become too different. (I've also bought Towns)
- How would you feel if by game release it was still a copy of DF's gameplay?
Frankly, if it had all the functionality of DF, I'd be delighted.
Everytime I played DF I just wished somebody would copy the whole thing, except with a UI that makes sense.

- Why did you buy the game?
Because I enjoyed the demo and I saw the developer responding to community feedback.


I may indirectly sound harsh toward Toady. I don't mean to, the concept of the game he created is fantastic and he deserves all the credit for that.
But the implementation isn't, and he is not willing to improve it. He is making the game of his dreams, non-profit and good for him, it's not like he owes me/us anything.
I'm just glad new people are taking the concept/genre and giving it their own spin.

This.

I love both games (hell, they're about all I ever wanted on a game) but ended up sticking on Gnomoria, mainly because of the easier UI. And I also find both the communities very nice :)

And one of the DF-only things I'd love to see on gnomoria is that huge world map creation :)

WolfK

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2012, 04:47:16 AM »
As was said before: It would be very very hard to create a game that is totally different then dwarf fortress yet has the same principle and setting. DF is very rich/complex in almost everything, esp. with an mod like "Masterwork".
But I have to admit that I came to this game because of DF and personally I see it as an prettier, easier DF spinoff.
This is however not a bad thing and only my personal view.

Also it must be said that this is only an alpha, an quite early alpha. So we can expect many more features to come and these will undoubtely take other paths then  DF thus with time it will go further and further away from it.

I like both games for different reasons and switch playing between them... after I finally came to terms with mants ;)

jdturner11

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2012, 09:04:31 AM »
As was said before: It would be very very hard to create a game that is totally different then dwarf fortress yet has the same principle and setting. DF is very rich/complex in almost everything, esp. with an mod like "Masterwork".
But I have to admit that I came to this game because of DF and personally I see it as an prettier, easier DF spinoff.
This is however not a bad thing and only my personal view.

Also it must be said that this is only an alpha, an quite early alpha. So we can expect many more features to come and these will undoubtely take other paths then  DF thus with time it will go further and further away from it.

I like both games for different reasons and switch playing between them... after I finally came to terms with mants ;)

 Yeah I definitely agree. This game is still in infancy and still has to come into it's own yet.

 Feels like this game runs inexplicably better than DF, too. I'm super excited for the new features and updates. So Wolf, what would you like to be implemented into the game next?

wonderboy2402

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2012, 12:28:14 PM »
For me, I would fall under the category of wanting a simpler dungeon fortress game where you manage your minions and expand. I really enjoyed dungeon keeper. So for me, gnomoria fills my need for carving out rooms and management. That is what got me most excited. When I started carving my first tunnels and rooms, I got that same vibe as DK.

I have tried dwarf fortress, and respect its depth and complexity. I was not a fan of the oversimplified ASCII art. Gnomoria from the start has simple sprite art, and I could tell the game was going to evolve into something special.

I would look at this as a genre. To say that dwarf foretress has sole claim over it is unfair. I hope more games are centered on this fortress management system.

ARandomBob

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2012, 02:48:21 PM »
I am sure it has been said 10 times in this thread already, but I have not and will not play DF for the soul reason that it has a weird ASCII interface. It also from what I hear has a very steep learning curve which I am sure is escalated by the interface.

Rarely in the gaming industry does a game with all completely fresh ideas come out. I like that games build off of and influence others. As long as it is not a Zynga style photo copy I see nothing wrong with it and it usually makes them overall better, or refines them for a particular taste such as my take on DF vs Gnomoria.

Evil Fluffy

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2012, 04:22:49 PM »

 I'm having fun with the demo. I play DF pretty extensively and decided to give it a spin with isometric 2D. But, I feel kind of... Guilty.... Even a little annoyed at times, the taking of someone's idea and hard work is kind of blatant.



 The art and graphics are great, I like the interface too, but it feels like this is piggy backing pretty heavily on Toady and taking advantage of his non-pricepoint/community's want for a friendlier interface. I'm sure you've heard all this before, it's the main criticism of the game, but I want to talk about it rationally with the Gnomoria fanbase.

  Here are a few questions to start the conversation. But please, don't get upset - remember we are only talking about video games here, nothing to get angry over.


- Do you/Did you treat Gnomoria as a kind of tutorial for Dwarf Fortress?

- Do you wish Gnomoria took more steps to differ itself from DF?

- How would you feel if by game release it was still a copy of DF's gameplay?

- Why did you buy the game?

- If you started DF AFTER playing Gnomoria, which do you prefer? If you played DF before, WHICH do you prefer? (This is assuming you can only play one or the other)

Dwarf Fortress is like an old MUD. It may have a lot of depth and time put in to it.  It may even use systems (original or not) that others use and improve upon as is common in game development.  Look at Minecraft; it wasn't the first game of that genre but it was an improvement and ended up being far more popular.  That said, Dwarf Fortress's layout is a large eyesore and hindrance for many.  Just like DOS was very sleek and effective vs Windows and MacOS back in the early 90s, those were also far more user friendly and ultimately rendered DOS obsolete for all but edge cases.

DF has more depth and development time in it, but I prefer this just as I preferred Terraria over Minecraft.  Just like Terraria and Minecraft, this and DF are similar but they aren't the same game.

DF does have the advantage of worldsize and activity in it.  You can make massive, ancient maps in DF which have numerous NPC races and civilizations.  They sort of exist in this but just as a means of being where enemies and merchants come from.  There's no interacting with them and the largest Gnomoria maps are quite small compared to DF.  That could always change and perhaps we'll see XXL maps that are a few thousand tiles long and wide, with some NPC settlements there.  It'd be nice to be able to take the fight to the enemies for a change.  Even if it means years of prep to send dozens of steel-clad gnomes in to battle.

SyberSmoke

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Re: I like this game, I do
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2012, 05:14:09 PM »
Sigh...and yeash.

Every idea is an amalgamation of a number of ideas before it.  Do we complain that every FPS game is basically a copy of Doom...nope.  Dwarf Fortress is (I suspect, never played it) a good game, but the simple fact is it is the foundation of thought for future titles that will expand and advance the genre.

Heck look at the return of Chris Roberts to the world of gaming and his new project, Star Citizen.  That project is the evolution of his work with Wing Commander, Privateer, and Freelancer.  And those works are based on material before them.  Heck I would not be surprised if the idea of DF was based on ideas that came out of a an adventure RPG book.

So in the end, comparisons are great, but ultimately futile.  Well unless you talking about a blatant knock off like say a tetris clone.  Yeah any way...judge the game for what it is and not for what may have inspired its creation.